Atheist clubs are springing up in American high schools

[Pappa]

I don't see why this is a cause for celebration. As far as I'm concerned it's just something that's come to pass. Show me a correlation between the rise of atheist clubs in high school and a decrease in teen pregnancies, or violence, or drug abuse, and then I'll celebrate it.

Surely just having kids that aren't brainwashed by nonsense is something positive in itself?

Not really. It makes no difference as to whether they're religious or atheist if nothing actually changes. They've just replaced one label with another, but their attitude will be the same.

There's more to life than just teen pregnancies, or violence, or drug abuse. What if it changed none of those but resulted in much greater scientific understanding in the general population, leading to better medicine, better technology, etc. (Or any other improvement in life.)

[Trolldor]

I don't see why this is a cause for celebration. As far as I'm concerned it's just something that's come to pass. Show me a correlation between the rise of atheist clubs in high school and a decrease in teen pregnancies, or violence, or drug abuse, and then I'll celebrate it.

Surely just having kids that aren't brainwashed by nonsense is something positive in itself?

Not really. It makes no difference as to whether they're religious or atheist if nothing actually changes. They've just replaced one label with another, but their attitude will be the same.

There's more to life than just teen pregnancies, or violence, or drug abuse. What if it changed none of those but resulted in much greater scientific understanding in the general population, leading to better medicine, better technology, etc. (Or any other improvement in life.)

I was citing those as examples. I don't care about the ideological changes of teenage kids. I want to know if anything's actually changing at all, whether anything's happening. Merely starting atheist clubs doesn't mean they're embracing rationality or becoming more better people.

[Pappa]

I don't see why this is a cause for celebration. As far as I'm concerned it's just something that's come to pass. Show me a correlation between the rise of atheist clubs in high school and a decrease in teen pregnancies, or violence, or drug abuse, and then I'll celebrate it.

Surely just having kids that aren't brainwashed by nonsense is something positive in itself?

Not really. It makes no difference as to whether they're religious or atheist if nothing actually changes. They've just replaced one label with another, but their attitude will be the same.

There's more to life than just teen pregnancies, or violence, or drug abuse. What if it changed none of those but resulted in much greater scientific understanding in the general population, leading to better medicine, better technology, etc. (Or any other improvement in life.)

I was citing those as examples. I don't care about the ideological changes of teenage kids. I want to know if anything's actually changing at all, whether anything's happening. Merely starting atheist clubs doesn't mean they're embracing rationality or becoming more better people.

Being an atheist is one thing, but actually going to the effort to start or join an atheist club at least implies (in my view) that they are probably thinking about it in an intelligent and rational way and probably learning about atheist/secular ideas. I'd say that's a good thing.

[Trolldor]

All it tells me is that high school kids are starting clubs. It gives no indication as to how or why.

[FBM]

I want to know if anything's actually changing at all, whether anything's happening. Merely starting atheist clubs doesn't mean they're embracing rationality or becoming more better people.

Right. When they get together, are they just doing it to be cool, or do they actually discuss reason vs belief, etc? The only way to know would be to sit in on some of the groupings and observe. I do have a feeling that something must be definitely changing, or this wouldn't have even been news-worthy...crossing my fingers...

[Trolldor]

I want to know if anything's actually changing at all, whether anything's happening. Merely starting atheist clubs doesn't mean they're embracing rationality or becoming more better people.

Right. When they get together, are they just doing it to be cool, or do they actually discuss reason vs belief, etc? The only way to know would be to sit in on some of the groupings and observe. I do have a feeling that something must be definitely changing, or this wouldn't have even been news-worthy...crossing my fingers...

I'm not saying what it is or what it isn't, only that celebrating the fact that they're starting clubs is a bit of... null act. There's no accomplishment actually achieved yet.

[charlou]

I want to know if anything's actually changing at all, whether anything's happening. Merely starting atheist clubs doesn't mean they're embracing rationality or becoming more better people.

Right. When they get together, are they just doing it to be cool, or do they actually discuss reason vs belief, etc? The only way to know would be to sit in on some of the groupings and observe. I do have a feeling that something must be definitely changing, or this wouldn't have even been news-worthy...crossing my fingers...

I'm not saying what it is or what it isn't, only that celebrating the fact that they're starting clubs is a bit of... null act. There's no accomplishment actually achieved yet.

That's easy for someone living in Australia to say ... In parts of the US it is quite something to be openly atheist, let alone part of a group of organised atheists, though the latter is probably good for the individuals' self preservation - safety in numbers - and they can achieve more as a group than each alone.

But yes, early days, of course ... so we shall see ...

[FBM]

I want to know if anything's actually changing at all, whether anything's happening. Merely starting atheist clubs doesn't mean they're embracing rationality or becoming more better people.

Right. When they get together, are they just doing it to be cool, or do they actually discuss reason vs belief, etc? The only way to know would be to sit in on some of the groupings and observe. I do have a feeling that something must be definitely changing, or this wouldn't have even been news-worthy...crossing my fingers...

I'm not saying what it is or what it isn't, only that celebrating the fact that they're starting clubs is a bit of... null act. There's no accomplishment actually achieved yet.

That's easy for someone living in Australia to say ... In parts of the US it is quite something to be openly atheist, let alone part of a group of organised atheists, though the latter is probably good for the individuals' self preservation - safety in numbers - and they can achieve more as a group than each alone.

But yes, early days, of course ... so we shall see ...

Yeah, just getting the ball rolling, getting the debate open to public scrutiny is noteworthy in the States. At least when I was growing up there, you'd dare not question anything the preacher said. What have they accomplished? Maybe nothing more than the possibility of accomplishing something. But in my book, that's quite an accomplishment.

[Trolldor]

They're not 'breaking boundaries'. Atheism is already active in the public sphere and has been for some time in the US. As far as I'm concerned, good on them for doin what they want, but I'm not going to celebrate it. It's what they should be doing anyway. I'll celebrate it when there's an actual, demonstrable, positive effect on society.

[FBM]

They're not 'breaking boundaries'. Atheism is already active in the public sphere and has been for some time in the US. As far as I'm concerned, good on them for doin what they want, but I'm not going to celebrate it. It's what they should be doing anyway. I'll celebrate it when there's an actual, demonstrable, positive effect on society.

Well, we have a President who doesn't claim to be personally instructed by Gwod TM . That's a start, isn't it?

[Trolldor]

They're not 'breaking boundaries'. Atheism is already active in the public sphere and has been for some time in the US. As far as I'm concerned, good on them for doin what they want, but I'm not going to celebrate it. It's what they should be doing anyway. I'll celebrate it when there's an actual, demonstrable, positive effect on society.

Well, we have a President who doesn't claim to be personally instructed by Gwod TM . That's a start, isn't it?

What has that got to do with anything? It doesn't make him a better or worse candidate than the previous. Actions and results are what matter, a stance is nothing with effect.

[FBM]

...a stance is nothing with effect.

Eh?

[Trolldor]

I can sit here and rant about how I'm going to change the world and pull out all these fucking amazing plans which are one hundred percent foolproof. It doesn't mean shit until I've done something to try and get them in to effect.

[FBM]

I can sit here and rant about how I'm going to change the world and pull out all these fucking amazing plans which are one hundred percent foolproof. It doesn't mean shit until I've done something to try and get them in to effect.

Ah! You meant, "...a stance is nothing withOUT effect". Got it. Well, when a leader adopts a stance, followers tend to follow. Neither you nor I are leaders (as far as I know), so yes, it doesn't matter much what stance we take because we aren't in the public eye. Even the subtle nuances of a stance of someone as influential as Obama would have far-reaching repercussions, wouldn't they? They'd affect people's behavior much more than ours, anyway. BUT...you do have a point. Until it's obvious that his posturing has actually had that desrired effect...shit. I lost my train of thought.

Way past bedtime here....

[charlou]

And, as I said, organised atheism ... atheists groups ... become a voice for change ... instead of dispersed or hidden and therefore largely "ignorable", they become a demographic whose concerns have political clout, clout that increases as their voice grows stronger with greater numbers.