Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Sisifo
Posts: 1252
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:35 am

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Sisifo » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:40 am

Charlou wrote:
Sisifo wrote:You'd be surprised.
It wouldn't happen much. Politics and public administration are not the same thing. Public administration isn't the most efficient machine, but it has a lot of momentum. In the real day by day practice, politicians just sign "do it" to what the machine suggests to do.

You would just eliminate demagogy...
Would you elaborate, please, Carlos?
There's not much to elaborate. Democracies are run by a public structure of hired personnel whose political views are intrascendent to the matter. Often they have none. There are departments for everything, including self audit, analysis, statistics, control, etc. Whatever reaches to the political level, has already been trimmed and simplified for its signature. One rule of the public administration: don't put the political bosses in the situation to say "no". Like a law that before the voting has already been negotiated in the corridors, and everyone knows its outcome in Congress, all documents are polished so that the politics only need to approve. After years, the machine has developed a way to deal with the changes in the higher levels: don't allow them to think. If they do it, usually we are screwed. Examples: A five-yearly decision of the prioritary countries for investment is thousands of pages of reports that gets painfully trimmed commitee after commitee, to choose the "proposed" 8 or 10... Once it gets to the minister, he just needs to sign and it will become the policy for the nex 5 years. But more often than you can think, when the minister gets the list of 8, he "thinks", and decides (without reading the thousand pages, of course), that he doesn't like one of the countries, and puts another... Sometimes, because he has to visit those countries more often, and puts his personal preferences... That happens a lot. Oh, and in those circumstances the machine has to distract its usual work to find justifications for the decision... It's not easy.

Another example: every time a political level has a meeting, the talking points, the country's posture and the answers to the 50 most likely questions are elaborated by different strata of the machine in a similar way: starts with huge reports that get filtered and filtered up to the executive level. A rule: Never give the executive levels reports of more than 5 pages.

The only thing that the machine cannot do by itself, is changing its own programming. That programming is the laws. Give a law to the machine, and it will execute it continuously. That's why I say that in democratic countries, where the legal framework is mostly finished, and a big percentage of the new laws are just demagogics.

That's why I say that the daily life would not notice it... It probably would improve.

The problem would be when important situations come along that require a change of law. The machine cannot adapt to that...
It is then, and only then, when rulers need to take the reins. The rest of the time, the horse knows the way...

User avatar
Animavore
Nasty Hombre
Posts: 39276
Joined: Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:26 am
Location: Ire Land.
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Animavore » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:37 am

So little of a shit do I give I'm not even going to respond to the OP :coffee:
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.

User avatar
FBM
Ratz' first Gritizen.
Posts: 45327
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 pm
About me: Skeptic. "Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach"
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by FBM » Mon Oct 19, 2009 4:46 am

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:If nobody ever lost their equanimity and level-headedness over politics, we'd all still be living as feudal serfs.
I suppose revolution is sometimes avoidable, but I wasn't thinking about extremes.
As for 'expectations', whilst we cannot expect (but must always be striving for) a perfect system, or perfect people in the system, there is a danger of the opposite extreme, where people say that politicians are 'only human', and that we shouldn't expect any better. This is just plain wrong. The job they do is too important not to expect better. 'Only human' is woefully inadequate as a standard, and the tolerance of woefully inadequacy in our politicians is something which has caused, and continues to cause, a great deal of genuine human suffering in our societies.

The consequences when those in power get it wrong are too real and great to afford to cut them some slack and stop giving them a hard time.
Of course we should always demand the best from our leaders, and if what I said seems to suggest otherwise, it's probably because I didn't expain it very clearly. I'm saying that there is a middle ground between apathy and disgusted cynicism. That middle ground is more effective, as those at either extreme tend not to vote or otherwise participate effectively. If you don't like the current leaders, don't cut them any slack at the voting booth.

But then you get into the area where successful politicians are too often just the ones best at manufacturing consensus and image managment, rather than the ones with the most skill at effective leadership and management.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

User avatar
Rum
Absent Minded Processor
Posts: 37285
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: South of the border..though not down Mexico way..
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Rum » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:28 am

Sisifo wrote:You'd be surprised.
It wouldn't happen much. Politics and public administration are not the same thing. Public administration isn't the most efficient machine, but it has a lot of momentum. In the real day by day practice, politicians just sign "do it" to what the machine suggests to do.

You would just eliminate demagogy...
As someone who is part of the machine that isn't 'the most efficient machine' I think I am qualified to say that you are not correct here. In this country at any rate (the UK) when a government comes into power they have a set of policies and an agenda which is enormous in many cases. Certainly the Labour party's has been this last ten years. They have developed a system of central and regional 'advisers' who monitor that the policies are being put into place and action taken on them. The scrutiny is sometimes very detailed and all designed to ensure that the policy is being acted upon. Since the time of Thatcher, these policies override professional opinion and ignore local advice and 'flavour'. It is government by diktat in my view.

I am not sure what would happen if that framework was suddenly removed. I guess we would all start doing our own local research on the best way to deliver education (in my example). ..which would be no bad thing I guess.

Sisifo
Posts: 1252
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:35 am

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Sisifo » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:03 am

Rumertron wrote:
Sisifo wrote:You'd be surprised.
It wouldn't happen much. Politics and public administration are not the same thing. Public administration isn't the most efficient machine, but it has a lot of momentum. In the real day by day practice, politicians just sign "do it" to what the machine suggests to do.

You would just eliminate demagogy...
As someone who is part of the machine that isn't 'the most efficient machine' I think I am qualified to say that you are not correct here. In this country at any rate (the UK) when a government comes into power they have a set of policies and an agenda which is enormous in many cases. Certainly the Labour party's has been this last ten years. They have developed a system of central and regional 'advisers' who monitor that the policies are being put into place and action taken on them. The scrutiny is sometimes very detailed and all designed to ensure that the policy is being acted upon. Since the time of Thatcher, these policies override professional opinion and ignore local advice and 'flavour'. It is government by diktat in my view.

I am not sure what would happen if that framework was suddenly removed. I guess we would all start doing our own local research on the best way to deliver education (in my example). ..which would be no bad thing I guess.
Then I believe we agree in the core: that the machine works, and that politician removal would affect just in removing interferences.
Maybe your sector is very subject of politicians with great ideas :lol: . Mine is foreign economic relationships, and few dare to try to look smart in this subject, without lots of analysts behind...
I don't detect big differences between left or right in it. Money is money...

User avatar
Rum
Absent Minded Processor
Posts: 37285
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 9:25 pm
Location: South of the border..though not down Mexico way..
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Rum » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:19 pm

I noticed your Heinlen sig just as I was recalling a short story which I am almost certain he wrote. In the story this guy visits a human colony on another planet and he is a sort of anthropologist or some such. He tries to work out how they organise themselves and he keeps getting the response 'rountoit'.

One of these days 'I'll get around to it'. - was the way they organised themselves in their anarchy.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:54 pm

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:As far as I can tell, we'd loose the input of all of The Four Horsemen, as none of them appear to have had civil service/military jobs at any point. (or if they have, that information seems to have bypassed me)
That's under the current rules, not the alt.world of SST. Just sayin'.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

Trolldor
Gargling with Nails
Posts: 15878
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:57 am
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Trolldor » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:22 am

When it comes down to it, no matter how intelligent the few are, their votes are only worth one. (barring fraud :coffee:)
When it comes to contributing to the Government, in a representative democracy not everyone is given a choice. our parliament votes on most matters, very few referendums are ever held. We should demand and expect a degree of competence and common sense from them. My say is disproportinate to theirs, because they can simply ignore you as they have in the past, no matter who you might be.

Give me a system like SST (original, not the god-bothering nonsense) and I will happily contribute. Right now my vote is a token vote.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

User avatar
Horwood Beer-Master
"...a complete Kentish hog"
Posts: 7061
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: Wandering somewhere around the Darenth Valley - Kent
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:27 pm

born-again-atheist wrote:...Give me a system like SST (original, not the god-bothering nonsense) and I will happily contribute. Right now my vote is a token vote.
Why wouldn't it be a token vote in SST? :think:
Image

Trolldor
Gargling with Nails
Posts: 15878
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:57 am
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Trolldor » Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:29 pm

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:...Give me a system like SST (original, not the god-bothering nonsense) and I will happily contribute. Right now my vote is a token vote.
Why wouldn't it be a token vote in SST? :think:
Because in SST, they actually listen to the people.
Sort of hard to not give your entire military force a few concessions.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

User avatar
Horwood Beer-Master
"...a complete Kentish hog"
Posts: 7061
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 2:34 pm
Location: Wandering somewhere around the Darenth Valley - Kent
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Horwood Beer-Master » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:26 pm

born-again-atheist wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:...Give me a system like SST (original, not the god-bothering nonsense) and I will happily contribute. Right now my vote is a token vote.
Why wouldn't it be a token vote in SST? :think:
Because in SST, they actually listen to the people.
Sort of hard to not give your entire military force a few concessions.
But the problem now is not that the entire voting public couldn't force concessions from the government if they acted together, it's that the government manipulates them so they don't.

How would it make a difference that the voters not making a fuss were all armed?



Also what happens with those non-voting civilians who refuse to take orders from the state to which they have no participation? Are you going to give them land to form their own country? Or are you going to control them with force (effectively imposing a police state on the non-voters)?
Image

Trolldor
Gargling with Nails
Posts: 15878
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:57 am
Contact:

Re: Suppose nobody gave a shit..

Post by Trolldor » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:46 pm

Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:
Horwood Beer-Master wrote:
born-again-atheist wrote:...Give me a system like SST (original, not the god-bothering nonsense) and I will happily contribute. Right now my vote is a token vote.
Why wouldn't it be a token vote in SST? :think:
Because in SST, they actually listen to the people.
Sort of hard to not give your entire military force a few concessions.
But the problem now is not that the entire voting public couldn't force concessions from the government if they acted together, it's that the government manipulates them so they don't.

How would it make a difference that the voters not making a fuss were all armed?



Also what happens with those non-voting civilians who refuse to take orders from the state to which they have no participation? Are you going to give them land to form their own country? Or are you going to control them with force (effectively imposing a police state on the non-voters)?
I'm saying you can't say that "if you join the military, you'll have a voice" and then not give them a voice. That's tantamount to self-destruction.
The problem with modern democracy is that very rarely is there any change. You get a new face with the same ideals.
"The fact is that far more crime and child abuse has been committed by zealots in the name of God, Jesus and Mohammed than has ever been committed in the name of Satan. Many people don't like that statement but few can argue with it."

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 16 guests