Suppose nobody gave a shit..

[Rum]

Most of us here are pretty cynical about politics and so called 'public life' to one degree or another. I find myself increasingly so as I getr older..

But..suppose nobody got involved with local politics, however self seeking, and then national and ultimately global politics!? What would happen?

Are we wrong to be so cynical and yet to let other people do the shit that needs doing that not only do we not get involved with but have the nerve to have a go at them for engaging with!?

Just saying..just asking..

[charlou]

Anarchy. Not the kind I'd advocate, though.


Interesting topic, Rum ...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I was involved in "diplomacy by other means" most of my adult life, I'm on vacation now. Sort of.

[Sisifo]

You'd be surprised.
It wouldn't happen much. Politics and public administration are not the same thing. Public administration isn't the most efficient machine, but it has a lot of momentum. In the real day by day practice, politicians just sign "do it" to what the machine suggests to do.

You would just eliminate demagogy...

[Gawdzilla Sama]

You'd be surprised.
It wouldn't happen much. Politics and public administration are not the same thing. Public administration isn't the most efficient machine, but it has a lot of momentum. In the real day by day practice, politicians just sign "do it" to what the machine suggests to do.

You would just eliminate demagogy...

I quite agree. Swift's "flappers" come to mind. "Career Foreign Service" was about the only thing that could strike fear in my heart at one time.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

If nobody gave a shit they would eventually burst. It wouldn't be pleasant.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

So are you saying that anyone who doesn't personally get involved in the running of things doesn't have the right to expect certain things of those who do? Certain things like competence? Standards? Selflessness? Good ideas? Good policies?

[charlou]

You'd be surprised.
It wouldn't happen much. Politics and public administration are not the same thing. Public administration isn't the most efficient machine, but it has a lot of momentum. In the real day by day practice, politicians just sign "do it" to what the machine suggests to do.

You would just eliminate demagogy...

Would you elaborate, please, Carlos?

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So are you saying that anyone who doesn't personally get involved in the running of things doesn't have the right to expect certain things of those who do? Certain things like competence? Standards? Selflessness? Good ideas? Good policies?

That's kind of the premise of Starship Troopers. You had to participate in the governing/running/defending of the nation to be able to vote. No onus laid on you if you didn't, but you didn't get a say unless you earned it.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

So are you saying that anyone who doesn't personally get involved in the running of things doesn't have the right to expect certain things of those who do? Certain things like competence? Standards? Selflessness? Good ideas? Good policies?

That's kind of the premise of Starship Troopers. You had to participate in the governing/running/defending of the nation to be able to vote. No onus laid on you if you didn't, but you didn't get a say unless you earned it.

Which in the real world would mean us loosing the input of many of our most intelligent people.

Also, more generally, people who are involved in the governing/running/defending of the nation stand a very good risk of becoming 'institutionalised'. With the kind of government proposed in Starship Troopers you loose the valuable 'outsiders perspective'.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

So are you saying that anyone who doesn't personally get involved in the running of things doesn't have the right to expect certain things of those who do? Certain things like competence? Standards? Selflessness? Good ideas? Good policies?

That's kind of the premise of Starship Troopers. You had to participate in the governing/running/defending of the nation to be able to vote. No onus laid on you if you didn't, but you didn't get a say unless you earned it.

Which in the real world would mean us loosing the input of many of our most intelligent people.

Also, more generally, people who are involved in the governing/running/defending of the nation stand a very good risk of becoming 'institutionalised'. With the kind of government proposed in Starship Troopers you loose the valuable 'outsiders perspective'.

"loosing the input of many of our most intelligent people."

Yeah, lots of stupid people in the military/government.

[FBM]

I vaguely recall that the Greek origin of either 'idiot' or 'moron' was a word used to describe those who had no interest in the affairs of state. No time to look it up right now, tho.

But if one has become cynical about politics, that indicates that one does really care, doesn't it? It seems more a matter of choosing to be bitter about it rather than doing something to change it for the better. I think it comes from an unreasonable expectation for our leaders to be perfect or for mankind to have produced a perfect system. However, history and experience should be sufficient to punch a hole in that expectation without losing one's equanimity and level-headedness over it.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

So are you saying that anyone who doesn't personally get involved in the running of things doesn't have the right to expect certain things of those who do? Certain things like competence? Standards? Selflessness? Good ideas? Good policies?

That's kind of the premise of Starship Troopers. You had to participate in the governing/running/defending of the nation to be able to vote. No onus laid on you if you didn't, but you didn't get a say unless you earned it.

Which in the real world would mean us loosing the input of many of our most intelligent people.

Also, more generally, people who are involved in the governing/running/defending of the nation stand a very good risk of becoming 'institutionalised'. With the kind of government proposed in Starship Troopers you loose the valuable 'outsiders perspective'.

"loosing the input of many of our most intelligent people."

Yeah, lots of stupid people in the military/government.

As far as I can tell, we'd loose the input of all of The Four Horsemen, as none of them appear to have had civil service/military jobs at any point. (or if they have, that information seems to have bypassed me)

[Hermit]

But..suppose nobody got involved with local politics, however self seeking, and then national and ultimately global politics!? What would happen?

We don't all have to be activists on every issue, but it definitely satisfying when grass roots action gets results.

The most beautiful public land in our town is a small park near a shopping strip. Council decided that it would be a good idea to "punch a road through" it (that's how one of the project managers put it). The intent was to funnel more tourists to the retailers. Letters to the editor of the local rag were written. An action group opposing the proposed vandalism was formed. The mayor announced that there'll be a public meeting "in a couple of months' time", where the issue can be discussed. Three months later, still no meeting. More letters and more agitation followed. The Mayor announced there will be a meeting after all, and that the company contracted to design and construct the project will have a representative there who will tell us why it is such a great idea. About 200 people turned up. Officials made their representations. Then it was open mic. Of the 30 people who took the opportunity to speak their mind, 28 explained why the project stinks. The two speakers in favour owned shops or property in the strip that was going to benefit from the destruction of the park.

A few weeks after the meeting the local paper reported that Council had decided to abandon the entire concept. The activism of less than 1% of the town's population stopped the idiocy.

Here is a section of the little park:

[Horwood Beer-Master]

I vaguely recall that the Greek origin of either 'idiot' or 'moron' was a word used to describe those who had no interest in the affairs of state. No time to look it up right now, tho.

But if one has become cynical about politics, that indicates that one does really care, doesn't it? It seems more a matter of choosing to be bitter about it rather than doing something to change it for the better. I think it comes from an unreasonable expectation for our leaders to be perfect or for mankind to have produced a perfect system. However, history and experience should be sufficient to punch a hole in that expectation without losing one's equanimity and level-headedness over it.

If nobody ever lost their equanimity and level-headedness over politics, we'd all still be living as feudal serfs.
As for 'expectations', whilst we cannot expect (but must always be striving for) a perfect system, or perfect people in the system, there is a danger of the opposite extreme, where people say that politicians are 'only human', and that we shouldn't expect any better. This is just plain wrong. The job they do is too important not to expect better. 'Only human' is woefully inadequate as a standard, and the tolerance of woefully inadequacy in our politicians is something which has caused, and continues to cause, a great deal of genuine human suffering in our societies.

The consequences when those in power get it wrong are too real and great to afford to cut them some slack and stop giving them a hard time.