Individual freedom vs restrictions via the state

[JimC]

In the real of covid, the tension between individual freedoms and requirements to follow directives from the state have come into a stronger focus. Of course, there has always been a spectrum, both in political opinion and in actual countries of these often opposing imperatives.

One way to consider the issue is to look closely at the reasons given for directives by state authorities, directives that are backed by a legal apparatus and ultimately by actual force. When directives are arbitrary, or lacking a rational, evidence-based foundation, or clearly only to perpetuate the state or powerful people, then most people would say they lack legitimacy, and deserve to be challenged.

But there are plenty of examples where the justification for state edicts are reasonable, and designed to reduce harm in the community, leaving aside measures against covid. Wearing seat belts, not being affected by drugs and alcohol when you drive are restrictions on individual freedom that a small minority might challenge, but a substantial majority would accept.

The various restrictions imposed by authorities to reduce the spread of covid mostly fall into the above category, IMO. Some are perhaps worthy of some concern - apparently, in Austria, police patrols are checking the vaccine status of random people in the streets, to check if they are out of their home for a valid reason; pushing it perhaps...

What do people think?

[macdoc]

Safety of the community from infectious disease has a very long history and the powers of health officials to abrogate personal rights and granted freedoms are immense.

If you walk into a hospital with obvious signs of an infectious disease or are tested and show that disease you are held there whether you like it or not....habeas corpus be damned.
Even TB in certain areas is a mandatory test.

Random checking of vaccine status is a bit beyond the pale except that most in the community now view ant-vaxxers as an unwelcome and needless risk to themselves and the community at large. People are fed up with them and downright celebrate when a particularly noisy ones dies from covid.

Get vaxxed or don't participate in society is what it is narrowing to.

I don't see it as any slippery slope - a person CAN chose to not get vaccinated for whatever stupid fuck reason they want.
Society is empowered to restrict their privileges based on that choice.

There are random checks for DUI ...what's the diff with random checks for vax status.

[JimC]

mac, I generally agree with your post, which has a covid focus. I guess I wanted to think about the individual freedom/state control thing a little more generally, but, as I said, it's certainly the covid pandemic and the government imposed restrictions that bring a new focus to it.

As an example of something that concerns me, the whole mandatory QR code check in. Now, I fully understand the necessity when contact tracing was such a vital element of our covid response. (A disclaimer here - I have no smart phone, so instead happily did either a written check in, or gave my home phone number to a staff member who entered it in an app). All fine, but what we have is a government system which contains the data of where most citizens are at any given time and date. We have had government assurances that the data can only be used for contact tracing, but you don't have to be a libertarian nutter to feel somewhat cynical about such assurances. I would certainly like to see a clear statement from government that the QR code check in will be abolished in the relatively near future, perhaps tied to vaccination rates and/or case numbers. It must have a clear end point.

[rainbow]

Meh.

The "State" is nothing but an instrument of oppression.

...which is sometimes a good thing, like public health. Would you be happy to accommodate the "rights" of a person with an open sore to rub their pus onto you?

[aufbahrung]

Police should come equipped with Vasers. Similar to Tasers but with a vaccine and they should fire it at any they suspect as having a sniffle. The police should not be risking their lives with close testing of those they think might have Covid-19. A Vaser is the responsible way forward and gives them something to shoot other than bullets...

[pErvinalia]

We've got chemtrails for that.

[Sean Hayden]

Is that still a thing?

[pErvinalia]

My view in regards to restrictions on the unvaccinated is that once the virus is under control (relatively few vaccinated people dying) that restrictions should be eased. The government shouldn't be in the business of punishing people for a bodily choice.

[Hermit]

Random checking of vaccine status is a bit beyond the pale...

Random checking is justified because it does reduce the number of people who transgress. This applies to issues other than the current pandemic as well, such as drugs, alcohol and exceeding the speed limit on public roads.

[Sean Hayden]

I was disappointed by the lack of restrictions here. They were opposed from the beginning, and I was never convinced by the opposition that we faced a real threat to our liberties.

[JimC]

Random checking of vaccine status is a bit beyond the pale...

Random checking is justified because it does reduce the number of people who transgress. This applies to issues other than the current pandemic as well, such as drugs, alcohol and exceeding the speed limit on public roads.

It can be justified in a particular place and time, in the middle of a dangerous surge of cases, for example. But we all know enough about the tendency of governments to overreach their mandates to want any such measures to be time limited, and proportional to the threat. The clear need for rational restrictions on our freedoms in particular situations should not become an open cheque for increased government controls in general...

[Hermit]

Random checking of vaccine status is a bit beyond the pale...

Random checking is justified because it does reduce the number of people who transgress. This applies to issues other than the current pandemic as well, such as drugs, alcohol and exceeding the speed limit on public roads.

It can be justified in a particular place and time, in the middle of a dangerous surge of cases, for example. But we all know enough about the tendency of governments to overreach their mandates to want any such measures to be time limited, and proportional to the threat. The clear need for rational restrictions on our freedoms in particular situations should not become an open cheque for increased government controls in general...

Yes, the danger of overreach is ever-present, but did you not mention you "wanted to think about the individual freedom/state control thing a little more generally"? Are you opposed to speed cameras checking every car passing it? Do you oppose random breath testing? Would you disapprove of the company running steel works randomly pulling anyone entering its premises in for drug testing?

[Scot Dutchy]

That is why we have democracies in some countries. In others it is chumocracies or plutocracies which explains the difference of attitudes.
In true democracies it is much easier to impose restrictions as it is accepted for the common good. In others it is considered exploitation which are rightly objected to.

[JimC]

Random checking of vaccine status is a bit beyond the pale...

Random checking is justified because it does reduce the number of people who transgress. This applies to issues other than the current pandemic as well, such as drugs, alcohol and exceeding the speed limit on public roads.

It can be justified in a particular place and time, in the middle of a dangerous surge of cases, for example. But we all know enough about the tendency of governments to overreach their mandates to want any such measures to be time limited, and proportional to the threat. The clear need for rational restrictions on our freedoms in particular situations should not become an open cheque for increased government controls in general...

Yes, the danger of overreach is ever-present, but did you not mention you "wanted to think about the individual freedom/state control thing a little more generally"? Are you opposed to speed cameras checking every car passing it? Do you oppose random breath testing? Would you disapprove of the company running steel works randomly pulling anyone entering its premises in for drug testing?

I can cope with those random drug and alcohol tests, they are clearly about saving lives in a very immediate sense. There have been issues with police randomly pulling over cars for licence checks etc (sometimes racial profiling has occurred). Random compulsory checks for covid would be a step too far, IMO...

[JimC]

That is why we have democracies in some countries. In others it is chumocracies or plutocracies which explains the difference of attitudes.
In true democracies it is much easier to impose restrictions as it is accepted for the common good. In others it is considered exploitation which are rightly objected to.

Additionally, if an elected government pushes its restrictions further than the bulk of the population will accept, they will be dealt with at the ballot box in the next election...