Republicans: continued

[Sean Hayden]

Right, that’s what I thought Cunt. The media and race baiting are to blame. There is very little to the actual concerns of Americans regarding policing or the criminal justice system more broadly, and you’ve managed this brilliant deduction on the basis of believing the media got it wrong regarding Blake.

The net effects of history’s injustices are staggering. According to statistics the NAACP examined, although black people make up 13.4 percent of the population, they make up 22 percent of fatal police shootings, 47 percent of wrongful conviction exonerations, and 35 percent of individuals executed by the death penalty. African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at five times the rate of whites. Black men face disproportionately harsh incarceration experiences as compared with prisoners of other races. Racial disparities are also noticeable with black youth, as evidenced by the school-to-prison pipeline and higher rates of incarceration for black juveniles.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/youn ... -can-help/

--quick note about this one, Crowder (used because you’re familiar with him, he’s by no means the only one) likes to say that the disparity is down to differences between the number of offenses committed ie blacks just commit more crimes. I gave you a link yesterday that shows how research has arrived at a different conclusion, multiple times. Here’s that link again in case you missed it: https://www.sentencingproject.org/publi ... 0Disparity

The police shootings have happened in this context.

So, keeping that context in mind imagine hearing the story of a young man shot dead in his grandmother’s backyard in California because the police believed he had a gun. They shot him I think 20 times? He had a cell phone.

Or waking up to find out another man had been shot dead in his own apartment by a cop who thought he was in hers. Then there was the victim of a “no knock warrant” –since banned in her city.

These and other examples happened in a country with the disparities mentioned above. Do you really think media manipulation and race baiting is the best explanation of the protest and riots? If so, why?

What do you do with all this inconvenient history?

[Brian Peacock]

On defunding the police...

[Cunt]

Not just the Media, the Pres and VP.

But yeah, there is this gaslighting habit of media, where they base outrage story on a lie, then when someone investigates the lie, claims it wasn't really a lie, or the riots weren't really because of that lie, or the guy didn't really do anything...

As long as you don't have to dispel the lie, they can move on to the next victim they wish to celebrate. With luck, their audience will be outraged in the direction that the establishment wants them outraged.

[Cunt]

Right, that’s what I thought Cunt. The media and race baiting are to blame. There is very little to the actual concerns of Americans regarding policing or the criminal justice system more broadly, and you’ve managed this brilliant deduction on the basis of believing the media got it wrong regarding Blake.

Nope. I believe there are actual concerns, and they seldom align with the establishment media narrative.

For example, they WILL tell the story of Blake the victim, over and over, and even have the President call him. They WILL NOT do the same with David Dorn.

Since they are both black men, and victims of gunshots, I'll leave you to sort out why one dead guy serves the media so well, and not the other.

The net effects of history’s injustices are staggering. According to statistics the NAACP examined, although black people make up 13.4 percent of the population, they make up 22 percent of fatal police shootings, 47 percent of wrongful conviction exonerations, and 35 percent of individuals executed by the death penalty. African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at five times the rate of whites. Black men face disproportionately harsh incarceration experiences as compared with prisoners of other races. Racial disparities are also noticeable with black youth, as evidenced by the school-to-prison pipeline and higher rates of incarceration for black juveniles.

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/youn ... -can-help/

--quick note about this one, Crowder (used because you’re familiar with him, he’s by no means the only one) likes to say that the disparity is down to differences between the number of offenses committed ie blacks just commit more crimes. I gave you a link yesterday that shows how research has arrived at a different conclusion, multiple times. Here’s that link again in case you missed it: https://www.sentencingproject.org/publi ... 0Disparity

The police shootings have happened in this context.

Do you mean in the context of having everyone focusing on the colour of criminality? I'll try to explain this way...poor people are more likely to be convicted of crimes, and to DO actual crimes.

Obviously, there are all colours of poor people, so I couldn't be racisming there. No, it's more subtle than that. Oppression isn't by colour, it is by dollars, most often. In a society where the legal system runs on money, justice will focus on the highest dollar value, for a lot of things. One unexpected result, is that I can steal your car, get caught quick, and go to jail. Your bike, though, I can get away with. The courts don't have time to chase a bike thief.

Now, in your wealthy life (as I imagine it) you use a car or truck, and your bike is NOT your commute vehicle. With poor people, a lot of times they don't have a car, so their bike IS that valuable. Your car, even if an old beater, will get more attention from police than his bike. Even though his bike is his one and only treasured vehicle, and your car might be one of three.

Judging people as superior or inferior according to their skin colour is shit. It has been for a long time.

The fact that police do it, even knowing that, reminds me of how jarring I found the racism in American prisons. You go in, you get divided by race. Not subtle. As a prisoner I mean.

It was a podcast called 'Ear Hustle' that described that so well. Worth a listen.

So, keeping that context in mind imagine hearing the story of a young man shot dead in his grandmother’s backyard in California because the police believed he had a gun. They shot him I think 20 times? He had a cell phone.

The number of times shot doesn't matter, you understand? If you are the cop, and make the decision to use deadly force, you use ALL you need to - leave no doubt. If a guy is shot three times, he can still stab you if he isn't dead.

It's ugly, but killing IS ugly. Whether they take one or fifty shots.

Or waking up to find out another man had been shot dead in his own apartment by a cop who thought he was in hers.

Don't know that one

Then there was the victim of a “no knock warrant” –since banned in her city.

When you say 'victim', is that the one where they shot through the door at the cops knocking? It's tough to do a case study of your case without knowing more about the case you are using.

These and other examples happened in a country with the disparities mentioned above. Do you really think media manipulation and race baiting is the best explanation of the protest and riots? If so, why?

Because of the simplest, most undeniable fact.

We love each other.

I simply don't believe that police are hunting one race of people in the US. It would look very different if that were the case. For one thing, that race would be kept out of the police force.

What do you do with all this inconvenient history?

What do you mean? Do you want to say the cases you vaguely refer to are clear cases of racist cops or something? What about sticking to the first case we talked about, or picking another one that you think will convince me?

I looked into the Blake case, and my sympathy is for the victim, the kids in the car, the police and the individual cop(s?) who had to shoot a person that day. For Blake I only have a recommendation that in future, he follow the restraining order. So the riots that followed, the misunderstandings that persist around it, I blame squarely on Harris, Biden and the media. In other words, the establishment who sowed outrage with a bullshit story.

Of course, they don't have to worry about accountability, since they are the establishment.

[Sean Hayden]

The point is just to avoid dismissing the concerns while discrediting the media.

The protests aren't a product of the media, but the disparities listed above, and the activists who have brought them to everyone's attention. The shootings are reported to a country acutely aware of the difference in treatment of minorities by police and the criminal justice system.

--//--

Poverty is a bit of red herring here. We know who is more likely to be poor.

--//--

The number of times shot doesn't matter, you understand? If you are the cop, and make the decision to use deadly force, you use ALL you need to - leave no doubt. If a guy is shot three times, he can still stab you if he isn't dead.

It's ugly, but killing IS ugly. Whether they take one or fifty shots.

Where'd you get that idea? Why would the belief of the officer that deadly force was justified trump our revulsion at the number of times he shot the guy? --bizarre

--//--

I simply don't believe that police are hunting one race of people in the US. It would look very different if that were the case. For one thing, that race would be kept out of the police force.

That's a strawman.

--//--

What do you mean?

If you're going to blame the media you're going to have to do something with all that history of racism and the disparities I listed above. They're competing with your media hypothesis for the cause of protest.

[Cunt]

The point is just to avoid dismissing the concerns while discrediting the media.

The protests aren't a product of the media, but the disparities listed above,

You have listed some vague case-studies. The one particular we have looked at doesn't show anything racist to me. I don't know the race of the perpetrators victim, the threatened children, the law enforcement personnel or anyone. Only the guy who attacked the cops seems to be important, race-wise.

and the activists who have brought them to everyone's attention. The shootings are reported to a country acutely aware of the difference in treatment of minorities by police and the criminal justice system.

That 'difference' is not the actual difference, but the percieved difference. That's the point of the polling I showed you - that people think there is a lot more racial targeting than there is.

But I don't expect you to even look at one case fairly, because it is much safer to keep the race-fire burning, and ignore everything that runs that narrative into the ground.

--//--

Poverty is a bit of red herring here. We know who is more likely to be poor.

The poor.

That's who is more likely. Also, children of single parents.

You want single-factor analysis, but we both know in social science ,that's dogshit stupid.

Riddle me this - is race a bigger predicter of adult criminal conviction? Or having a single mother in the home? (I haven't checked, just have a hunch)

--//--

The number of times shot doesn't matter, you understand? If you are the cop, and make the decision to use deadly force, you use ALL you need to - leave no doubt. If a guy is shot three times, he can still stab you if he isn't dead.

It's ugly, but killing IS ugly. Whether they take one or fifty shots.

Where'd you get that idea? Why would the belief of the officer that deadly force was justified trump our revulsion at the number of times he shot the guy? --bizarre

What guidelines would you put in place around use of deadly force? Maximum number of shots? Minimum?

The decision to kill is the significant point for me. It doesn't much matter if the cop then gives the perp a humane lethal injection, or tosses him in a meatgrinder. It's just optics.

But feel free to convince me you have a better way to guide a panicked cop who has to kill an assailant. Remember, you are going to have to guide this cop who will definitely be a lesser man than most of the smarte folks here. I've asked, and everyone here (unless I am mistaken) has eschewed the ugly responsibilities of law enforcement. I've done so, mostly. It's a fucking terrible responsibility.

--//--

I simply don't believe that police are hunting one race of people in the US. It would look very different if that were the case. For one thing, that race would be kept out of the police force.

That's a strawman.

That I don't believe police are hunting a race.

OK.

--//--

What do you mean?

If you're going to blame the media you're going to have to do something with all that history of racism and the disparities I listed above. They're competing with your media hypothesis for the cause of protest.

No, I don't.

I blame the media for the Blake episode, and the riots that follow. The fact that you even now excuse everyone who fucked up the facts, because their heart was in the right place, well, that only works if you agree that Harris celebrating a sexual assaulter for attacking police is a good.

I don't. I also don't think it is a good for her to show the support she did without knowing the facts. I think it should be humiliating.

Of course, she won't be held to account, because the establishment agrees. As do you.

[Hermit]

Obviously, there are all colours of poor people ... Oppression isn't by colour, it is by dollars, most often.

It is both. If it were not, poverty rates would be the same, regardless of skin colour.

Turns out, poverty rates are not the same. Some points from a report by the United States Congressional Joint Economic Committee, titled The Economic State of Black America in 2020:

• Black unemployment has been double the rate of white unemployment for decades.
  
  

• In 2018 the average family income among blacks was $40,692, while it was $70,642 for non-Hispanic whites.
  
  

• Black child poverty rates are triple the white child poverty rates.
  
  

• White families own nearly ten times the wealth of black families.
  
  

Races are not real. Racism is.

[Cunt]

Love your single-factor look at things. I bet you could find data that says Trump supporters are fundamentally racist.

But I still wouldn't be convinced to start singing along with the wealthy establishment. You go ahead. I'll keep asking about single-parent homes, and how you think those stats play in.

Then I might ask if there seems to be more single parent homes in the black community, and whether it is Republican, or Democrat policies which push against that traditional family dynamic.

[Brian Peacock]

Do you dispute that black people seem to be at a disproportionate disadvantage in the US?

[Cunt]

Depends on which black people, in which context.

But I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how important father-absent homes are to predicting similar negative outcomes. Like earning potential, or prison time.

Meanwhile, I'll move on to finding more republicans. If I want people insisting I follow the establishment narrative, I can always tune in to CNN, CBC, BBC, ABC, alphabet or any of a dozen other establishment sources.

[Cunt]

Found one!
(spoilered to keep the heat down in here)

Trigger Warning!!!1! :

[Brian Peacock]

Depends on which black people, in which context...

Black people generally in the context of US society.

[Hermit]

Love your single-factor look at things.

The irony is striking. You wrote

Oppression isn't by colour

and continued

it is by dollars, most often

My reply started with

It is both.

and continued

If it were not, poverty rates would be the same, regardless of skin colour.

I'll keep asking about single-parent homes, and how you think those stats play in.

Don't just ask. Give us the stats, then tell us how you think they play in.

[pErvinalia]

He's waiting for you to do his homework for him.

[Cunt]

He's waiting for you to do his homework for him.

No, I'm just noting their focus on one thing, above all others.

'Black people in America' includes everyone from the wealthy elite, to the poorest of the poor.

From oppressor to oppressed.

That's why it's so puzzling when a bunch of rich first-world people get angry about all the racism in the world, and they pick on the country that elects all races (including the 'black people') to the highest offices.

I know how focused the media insists we be. I decline.

I remember back when I used to ignore the global warming alarmists, they were similarly pissed that I didn't come to heel on their pet issue. I'm used to it.