Scientific Proof Of God

[Brian Peacock]

Hey, peacock: What do you think your punishment should be for spreading lies using apparently anonymous internet forums?

If the forum is anonymous who am I spreading lies to?

I understand you have your beliefs Dennis, but simply expressing them does not imbue them with the status of truth or elevate them to the status of fact. Facts are supported, justified claims. I remain sceptical about your claims because I do not consider the expression of opinions as adequate support or justification in themselves. Grand claims about the nature of the material Universe require material support. Even grander claims about the nature, power, motivation, and action of a super-natural agent are, it seems to me, fundamentally impossible to support. So where does that leave us?

The existence of your nominated deity, their powers, their responsibilities, and their actions are unproven just-so stories created by primitive peoples as a way to explain the natural world around them. We have better, more supportable and justifiable explanations today. Not a complete explanation of course, but better explanations nonetheless.

Just as you would disbelieve claims for the Greek or Norse pantheon of deities, or the animistic beliefs of Voodoo, or the creation myths of the ancient Toltec civilisation, I disbelieve claims for YHWH. Just as you have no good cause to accept the claims for the former I have no good cause to accept the claims for the latter. Again, where does that leave us?

[superuniverse]

Hey, peacock: What do you think your punishment should be for spreading lies using apparently anonymous internet forums?

.

Just as you would disbelieve claims for the Greek or Norse pantheon of deities, or the animistic beliefs of Voodoo, or the creation myths of the ancient Toltec civilisation, I disbelieve claims for YHWH. Just as you have no good cause to accept the claims for the former I have no good cause to accept the claims for the latter. Again, where does that leave us?

I've said nothing of the kind. On the contrary, I do believe these claims.

You just lie.

[Brian Peacock]

Hey, peacock: What do you think your punishment should be for spreading lies using apparently anonymous internet forums?

.

Just as you would disbelieve claims for the Greek or Norse pantheon of deities, or the animistic beliefs of Voodoo, or the creation myths of the ancient Toltec civilisation, I disbelieve claims for YHWH. Just as you have no good cause to accept the claims for the former I have no good cause to accept the claims for the latter. Again, where does that leave us?

I've said nothing of the kind. On the contrary, I do believe these claims.

You just lie.

Do you not consider the claims about the world and the Universe made on behalf of Greek, Roman, Norse, or animistic deities etc as contradictory to the claims made on behalf of YHWH?

[JimC]

I suppose the ultimate theist would allow himself to believe in the existence of all gods, from all cultures.

I wonder how they figure they all get along together?

[superuniverse]

Not all all. These explanations, however absurd they may sound, are certainly far more plausible than the atheistic claim of a universe coming from nothing. There are mysteries the human mind cannot explain. No science will ever be able to eradicate the mythological dimension of human existence.

You are basically signing your own death sentence. You don't see it.

[superuniverse]

Believe me, I paid a high price for blasphemy in my youth

You also will understand it.

[superuniverse]

All I care about is that you try...

[Brian Peacock]

Not all all. These explanations, however absurd they may sound, are certainly far more plausible than the atheistic claim of a universe coming from nothing. There are mysteries the human mind cannot explain. No science will ever be able to eradicate the mythological dimension of human existence.

You are basically signing your own death sentence. You don't see it.

But beliefs justify actions don't they? The beliefs of the Toltecs for example justified the ritual murder of children, and deemed such horrors as scared, holy, and necessary. The beliefs of new-agey homeopaths justify the negation of cancer treatment based on empirical evidence, and the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses justify the refusal of life-saving treatment for their sick children. The beliefs of radical Islamisists justify blowing themselves up in a crowded marketplaces of fellow believers. The beliefs of some Evangelical Christians justify actions which plunge them into destitution by investing in pyramid scams. You believe in a system of divine punishments and retributions for wrong-doing - karma - and yet your beliefs led you to threatening people on the internet and telling them that you were going to physically punish them on behalf of your nominated deity. I'm sure all these things seemed right and true and justifiable at the time to the believers but how can we account for the unnecessary suffering, trauma, and death caused in the name of these and countless other unshakable beliefs? Why should the cause of that kind of suffering not go unpunished also? And why do you think calling these beliefs a 'religion' makes them, by your own words,"far more plausible than the atheistic claim of a universe coming from nothing"? Believing some nonsense is not better than believing no nonsense at all.

Given the litany of unnecessary suffering, trauma and death caused by ideologues throughout history, if your system of divine punishments and retributions for wrong-doing actually held true shouldn't we all be living in a luxury communist utopia by now?

[Hermit]

There are mysteries the human mind cannot explain.

So you believe without understanding. There's a word for that.

I for one regard God, if he exists, as the ultimate criminal, unworthy of worship.

[superuniverse]

Not all all. These explanations, however absurd they may sound, are certainly far more plausible than the atheistic claim of a universe coming from nothing. There are mysteries the human mind cannot explain. No science will ever be able to eradicate the mythological dimension of human existence.

You are basically signing your own death sentence. You don't see it.

But beliefs justify actions don't they? The beliefs of the Toltecs for example justified the ritual murder of children, and deemed such horrors as scared, holy, and necessary. The beliefs of new-agey homeopaths justify the negation of cancer treatment based on empirical evidence, and the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses justify the refusal of life-saving treatment for their sick children. The beliefs of radical Islamisists justify blowing themselves up in a crowded marketplaces of fellow believers. The beliefs of some Evangelical Christians justify actions which plunge them into destitution by investing in pyramid scams. You believe in a system of divine punishments and retributions for wrong-doing - karma - and yet your beliefs led you to threatening people on the internet and telling them that you were going to physically punish them on behalf of your nominated deity. I'm sure all these things seemed right and true and justifiable at the time to the believers but how can we account for the unnecessary suffering, trauma, and death caused in the name of these and countless other unshakable beliefs? Why should the cause of that kind of suffering not go unpunished also? And why do you think calling these beliefs a 'religion' makes them, by your own words,"far more plausible than the atheistic claim of a universe coming from nothing"? Believing some nonsense is not better than believing no nonsense at all.

Given the litany of unnecessary suffering, trauma and death caused by ideologues throughout history, if your system of divine punishments and retributions for wrong-doing actually held true shouldn't we all be living in a luxury communist utopia by now?

Sometimes sacrifices are necessary for the greater historical good. The great tribulations the human race have endured over the millenia have not been in vain. There is a reward at the end of all this suffering. This is the greatest mystery of all which cannot be comprehended by the human mind. There is no reward at the end for the atheist.
So is believing in eternal life better than believing in eternal annihilation? You position yourself against the entire history of the human species. But you don't see that.

[superuniverse]

And I know for certain there is life after death, but it is reserved for those who work for it. I will not tell you how this Revelation came to me.

[rainbow]

Sometimes sacrifices are necessary for the greater historical good. The great tribulations the human race have endured over the millenia have not been in vain. There is a reward at the end of all this suffering.

...which you will miss for telling porkies.

[rainbow]

[Scot Dutchy]

How about the Universe(s) Dennis. You never want to talk about that?

[JimC]

And I know for certain there is life after death, but it is reserved for those who work for it. I will not tell you how this Revelation came to me.

Doesn't really have the feel of "Scientific Proof"...