You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Cunt » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:33 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:10 pm
I see the focus on blaming society as providing the means to justify not helping people.

--//--

You either help people or you don't Cunt. There's no science of life which might guide your decisions here. That's why I find our Tweeter's "paycheck to paycheck" comment so disagreeable. It invites that kind of analysis.
I help people AND I don't.

How could it be any other way?

You have to limit the amount of people you help, don't you? That limit (especially nationally) is what I don't hear pro-socialists describe well.

I'm one of the pro-socialists who can't describe that limit, by the way.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:52 pm

You don't spend a lot of time reading socialists do you? I don't.

Funding limits the amount of help available. If you're saying socialists don't talk about managing budgets, I'm afraid you're just wrong. (I know Hermit, we don't actually have socialists here. :biggrin: )
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:16 pm

Sean Hayden wrote:If we look at the lives of the well-off we will see similar failures. A man buys an expensive house just before he's laid off, the housing market implodes and he's forced to sell for thousands less than he paid and go broke in the process. He could have bought a cheaper house, been more realistic about his earning potential going forward, or less concerned with impressing Miami etc.

In both situations opportunities will have been missed.
To be honest, that sounds a bit teleological.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Feb 19, 2021 9:26 pm

What do you mean?
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:19 am

In the way your example seemed to cast the end point--debt, job loss, market failure etc--as an inevitable consequences of missed opportunities.

What effective control does the bloke really have over his job security, or the wider economic conditions of the housing market?

If you decide to drive home the pretty way because it's a nice day and you have a blowout on an isolated country road and end up in the creek trapped in your car covered in petrol you only appear to have missed an opportunity (made a bad decision) to avoid being in such a precarious position retrospectively. Even then that kind of assessment isn't going to help you when you need it - which is right now.

Everything appears to be inevitable after it's happened.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:22 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:37 pm
If we look at the lives of the well-off we will see similar failures. A man buys an expensive house just before he's laid off, the housing market implodes and he's forced to sell for thousands less than he paid and go broke in the process. He could have bought a cheaper house, been more realistic about his earning potential going forward, or less concerned with impressing Miami etc.

In both situations opportunities will have been missed.
What are the opportunities the poor and disadvantaged have missed?
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:30 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 8:52 pm
You don't spend a lot of time reading socialists do you? I don't.

Funding limits the amount of help available. If you're saying socialists don't talk about managing budgets, I'm afraid you're just wrong. (I know Hermit, we don't actually have socialists here. :biggrin: )
What's with the false dichotomy? (You reap what you sow - libertarian; unless you're a socialist)
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:33 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:19 am
In the way your example seemed to cast the end point--debt, job loss, market failure etc--as an inevitable consequences of missed opportunities.

What effective control does the bloke really have over his job security, or the wider economic conditions of the housing market?

If you decide to drive home the pretty way because it's a nice day and you have a blowout on an isolated country road and end up in the creek trapped in your car covered in petrol you only appear to have missed an opportunity (made a bad decision) to avoid being in such a precarious position retrospectively. Even then that kind of assessment isn't going to help you when you need it - which is right now.

Everything appears to be inevitable after it's happened.
Maybe, but I wouldn't place buying an expensive house after a recent promotion in that category.

We're in agreement about the unpredictability of life though. In fact, it's the nature of life that makes me suspicious of the dangers lurking behind our Twitterer's response to the crisis i.e. people are in this position because they're poor.

It invites an analysis of their actions, and undoubtedly we will discover where they could have made better choices.

Could've except for that unpredictability of life thing.

--//--

I read recently about how some studies are showing that people who seem to have incredible willpower actually just don't want the same things. --ha, imagine if that's true?

Perhaps you aren't so wise as you are boring... :biggrin:
Last edited by Sean Hayden on Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:34 am

By the way, Laklak has gone all survivalist after this Texas thing. We've got a new Seth in the making.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:36 am

When's he coming back?
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:40 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:22 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:37 pm
If we look at the lives of the well-off we will see similar failures. A man buys an expensive house just before he's laid off, the housing market implodes and he's forced to sell for thousands less than he paid and go broke in the process. He could have bought a cheaper house, been more realistic about his earning potential going forward, or less concerned with impressing Miami etc.

In both situations opportunities will have been missed.
What are the opportunities the poor and disadvantaged have missed?
We would need to look into individual cases. But it's reasonable to believe people without drinking water --who aren't homeless-- missed an opportunity to fill a gallon every time they finished one of milk for example.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:49 am


Sean Hayden wrote: ...

Perhaps you aren't so wise as you are boring... Image
You might have a point there. :)
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Sean Hayden » Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:57 am

:lol: ...it's a neat thought anyway. All those stuffy bastids believing they've mastered the difficulties
of life...

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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by Cunt » Sat Feb 20, 2021 1:23 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:19 am
In the way your example seemed to cast the end point--debt, job loss, market failure etc--as an inevitable consequences of missed opportunities.

What effective control does the bloke really have over his job security, or the wider economic conditions of the housing market?

If you decide to drive home the pretty way because it's a nice day and you have a blowout on an isolated country road and end up in the creek trapped in your car covered in petrol you only appear to have missed an opportunity (made a bad decision) to avoid being in such a precarious position retrospectively. Even then that kind of assessment isn't going to help you when you need it - which is right now.

Everything appears to be inevitable after it's happened.
We are all victims of physics.
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Re: You reap what you sow, unless you're a socialist.

Post by JimC » Sat Feb 20, 2021 2:00 am

Sean Hayden wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:40 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:22 am
Sean Hayden wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 7:37 pm
If we look at the lives of the well-off we will see similar failures. A man buys an expensive house just before he's laid off, the housing market implodes and he's forced to sell for thousands less than he paid and go broke in the process. He could have bought a cheaper house, been more realistic about his earning potential going forward, or less concerned with impressing Miami etc.

In both situations opportunities will have been missed.
What are the opportunities the poor and disadvantaged have missed?
We would need to look into individual cases. But it's reasonable to believe people without drinking water --who aren't homeless-- missed an opportunity to fill a gallon every time they finished one of milk for example.
Maybe there is a case to be made for schools to take some time discussing with students the concept of prudent preparation...
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