The Trump Pandemic

[Sean Hayden]

It's more depressing than perhaps you realize. In my opinion we underestimate the extent to which these traits are hardwired, something that if ultimately proven true may mean a lot of our efforts to make things better are hopeless.*


*so, really, what else is new?

One need only look at countries in the developed world to see that things don't have to be this way. Our problems are cultural and historical in nature. We are not on average genetically more sociopathic than the inhabitants of developed countries.

Are you sure about that? I know that these traits are more prevalent in prisons, and while I wouldn't call 'merica one big prison...well, I guess we could actually, couldn't we?

--//--

Anyway there are going to be a lot of complicating factors e.g. "psychopaths" may differ along cultural lines. The point is just that we may not make as much progress as we hoped because of beliefs and behaviors that don't exist entirely outside the influence of genes.

[Tero]

Christian HS behind our lot is doing football practice quite normally. Very much a contact sport.

[JimC]

Well, its hard to suppress those feelings for one's fellow totally buff athletes for too long...

[Tero]

3-6% of Americans infected, depending on state
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-n ... =algorithm

[Brian Peacock]

Animal behaviour are evolved responses to environmental conditions. Mammalian emotions are a mechanism which prepares an organism for action (behaviour).

Advertisers are those who specialise in tapping into our emotional responses in order to elicit some particular kind of behaviour - buy our stuff!

Public Relations firms specialise in tapping into our emotional responses in order to foster some particular kinds of ideas - chiefly favourable ideas about or towards their clients and the activities they undertake.

Politicians employ the rhetorical and narrative techniques of advertising and public relations to foster favourable ideas about themselves and unfavourable ideas about their rivals, with the goal of eliciting some particular kind of behaviour - to vote for X over Y, to not vote for Y, to not vote at all, to support this-or-that policy, to repeat this-or-that argument or talking point, to adopt this or that attitude.

Psychologists and sociologists have demonstrated that particular combinations of psychological and cognitive traits make people more susceptible to particular kinds of ideas and behaviour in response to particular kinds of rhetoric and narratives. People's psychological and cognitive traits, and the expression of those traits, are influenced by their environment (their present circumstances, their past experiences, their upbringing, the ideas they've been exposed to, etc) as much as being natural endowments and deficits with which they are born.

Reducing this complex web of environment, interaction, feedback, predisposition, circumstance, experience, exposure, and stimuli down to simple adjectives like 'evil' and 'stupid', or 'benign' and 'clever', is to ignore the fundamental complexities of what it means to be a human being in human society - it is, in effect, a way to dehumanise and de-legitimise the experience and basic humanity of other humans.

If the goal of any self-declared leftist is to improve the material conditions of all ordinary, working people within the systems which we have created and call 'our society', then we must find a way to put aside reactive platitudes and over-simplistic moral judgements about those who are essentiality in the same situation as our ourselves. We must avoid erecting false dichotomies and false distinctions that seemingly legitimise our own vilification, denigration, censure and even hatred of people essentially no different to ourselves - people just reacting to their environment in the only way they know how to do. Instead we must devote what energies and abilities we have to developing a broad and encompassing critique of the societies in which we operate and the systems we have created to organise them along with some viable set of alternatives to those systems. If we don't do this then what really changes? What is really improved?

And if that system is fundamentally broken then we must take matters into our own hands, working directly within the community to improve the material conditions of all its members for it's own sake, and through that develop new systems and ways of doing things like the labour movements of the early 20th century, the civil rights movements of mid 20th century, and the women's and LGB movements of the late 20th century did before us.

Picking a side at election time is simply not enough, particularly if we think that exercising our vote is the sum total or end of our political responsibilities to society. And if the system is fundamentally broken -- and at this point I think it probably is - then even that will not bring about real, positive, and lasting change in real, ordinary, working people's lives.

This is why not just accepting or agreeing with modern movements for change like environmental campaigners, trans rights activists and BLM etc, but actually supporting them through participation and activism, is so important - because in helping to highlight those kinds of issues, and through that helping to develop new ways to talk about those issues along with new ways of addressing them, we ultimately elevate the entire community to a better place that it would have been otherwise. It's also important because it's clear the old ways of thinking, talking about, and doing things is exactly what's led us to the situation we now find ourselves in.

I can't say it more plainly that that Seabass - well, I probably could, but it's late and it's better that it's said now than put off for another day that might not come.

[JimC]

Well said, Brian. Right now, in conditions of lockdown, it's somewhat depressing that many avenues of protest are blocked (for good reason). Isolation, I fear, works against community activism in many ways...

[Seabass]

Brian, I'll stop vilifying, denigrating, and hating Trumpkins when they stop vilifying, denigrating, and hating those who are essentiality in the same situation as themselves, but happen to have a different religion or skin color.

I can't help myself. You see, I have a particular combination of psychological and cognitive traits that make me more susceptible to particular kinds of ideas and behaviour in response to particular kinds of rhetoric and narratives. I'm just reacting to my environment in the only way I know how to do.

[Brian Peacock]

Really? I understand what you're saying though Seabass - you've said it often enough. To some extent it's all you have left now because the system has disempowered you. You're not alone in that. As you say, you're behaviour and attitudes are formed as much by your environment as those of the Trumpists you revile, but not completely so don't use it as an excuse. Yet you both fall back to the old ways when under stress -- and who among the ordinary, working population isn't under severe stress at the moment -- and you both earnestly opine that more and harder censure and affection are all that's required to make a difference. "We need to make a change by doing more of the same!" You have this in common with Trumpists too, and more besides, and that's an uncomfortable thought, but neither of you seem to have the resources to develop a critique or find a viable set of alternatives, or even have the means to express a coherent argument. The remedy for both camps is simply that others must make changes on your behalf, whether that's the Trumpist themselves or the politicians you have forlornly pinned your hopes on. Go and feed the homeless, or volunteer to supplement the education of educationally impoverished, or help set up a community arts project, or plant a community garden, or assist at a rent union or a medical centre, or whatever other real, practical good you can find to do. Perhaps your energy and abilities will find a useful outlet that will actually contribute to the kind of different way of doing things you want to see. Perhaps it will also show you how hating Trumpists doesn't do anything to improve people's lives even if it does make you feel potent, superior, and in control of things - at least for a while.

[Seabass]

Really? I understand what you're saying though Seabass - you've said it often enough. To some extent it's all you have left now because the system has disempowered you. You're not alone in that. As you say, you're behaviour and attitudes are formed as much by your environment as those of the Trumpists you revile, but not completely so don't use it as an excuse. Yet you both fall back to the old ways when under stress -- and who among the ordinary, working population isn't under severe stress at the moment -- and you both earnestly opine that more and harder censure and affection are all that's required to make a difference. "We need to make a change by doing more of the same!" You have this in common with Trumpists too, and more besides, and that's an uncomfortable thought, but neither of you seem to have the resources to develop a critique or find a viable set of alternatives, or even have the means to express a coherent argument. The remedy for both camps is simply that others must make changes on your behalf, whether that's the Trumpist themselves or the politicians you have forlornly pinned your hopes on. Go and feed the homeless, or volunteer to supplement the education of educationally impoverished, or help set up a community arts project, or plant a community garden, or assist at a rent union or a medical centre, or whatever other real, practical good you can find to do. Perhaps your energy and abilities will find a useful outlet that will actually contribute to the kind of different way of doing things you want to see. Perhaps it will also show you how hating Trumpists doesn't do anything to improve people's lives even if it does make you feel potent, superior, and in control of things - at least for a while.

This again? Would you tell a Jewish person not to say mean things on the internet about neo-nazis? Would you tell a gay person not to say mean things about the Westboro Baptist "God Hates Fags" people? Would you tell a woman not say mean things about incels? Would you tell black person not to say mean things about klansmen?

You're telling me that I'm the same as people who would happily see be deported because of my skin color. So once again, my feelings regarding Trumpkins has nothing to do with their ethnic background, sexual orientation, or other traits over which they have no control. And I don't support politicians who would do to them what Trump has done to immigrants and minorities (nevermind all the climate/science denial that's destroying the planet).

Look, if you're that annoyed at my talking shit about Trump and his cult, just say so. I know it's unpleasant. It's why don't discuss politics at home. But I'm not the same as them. If I'm really that bad, I'll try to keep most of my anti-Trump bitching limited to other social media...

[JimC]

I think that it sometimes seems that all opponents of Trump and Republican politicians can do, or perhaps want to do, is to attack them (verbally) because of what they say and what they do. You can produce endless examples of pretty appalling words, policies and actions there, and I (and I imagine Brian) would find those things repugnant too. But it spills over into a constant, virulent hatred of all things on that side of politics, and all Republican supporters. In the end, it just seems to be an automatic response which is not actually achieving anything...

This does not mean, of course, that the clear examples of racism and neo-Nazism should not be called out, but after that, what?

[Seabass]

I think that it sometimes seems that all opponents of Trump and Republican politicians can do, or perhaps want to do, is to attack them (verbally) because of what they say and what they do. You can produce endless examples of pretty appalling words, policies and actions there, and I (and I imagine Brian) would find those things repugnant too. But it spills over into a constant, virulent hatred of all things on that side of politics, and all Republican supporters. In the end, it just seems to be an automatic response which is not actually achieving anything...

This does not mean, of course, that the clear examples of racism and neo-Nazism should not be called out, but after that, what?

Do you reckon a lot of German Jews probably had some nasty things to say about Nazis during the 20s and 30s in Germany?

What's happening in this country is crazy. I don't think I could pretend that all this was normal and fine even if I wanted to. Maybe if I were white it wouldn't bother me so much...

[Hermit]

She must have been really pissed off...

Post reported for pissweak punning. Urine trouble now!

[JimC]

@ Seabass...

So, if Trump and the Republicans are saying and doing horrible things (and I don't disagree) then surely the key aim is to have him voted out in November, and to reduce the number of Republican office holders in general. Is simply a stream of vituperation against them going to achieve that? How can uncommitted voters be persuaded, first to vote, and secondly to vote against him?

@ Hermit:

[Seabass]

@ Seabass...

So, if Trump and the Republicans are saying and doing horrible things (and I don't disagree) then surely the key aim is to have him voted out in November, and to reduce the number of Republican office holders in general. Is simply a stream of vituperation against them going to achieve that? How can uncommitted voters be persuaded, first to vote, and secondly to vote against him?

@ Hermit:

Of course a stream of vituperation won't achieve that. Are there any uncommitted voters on this forum? It's not like I go out into the world badmouthing Trumpkins to random people I encounter on the street.

[L'Emmerdeur]

You've written some fine rants on the topic. Carry on with the good work, I say.