The Coronavirus Thread

[laklak]

Hey, I'm not telling you how to live, am I? Am I constantly ragging on Ireland or the UK or EU for how you decide to do things? Why do you feel it necessary to try to tell me how I should be living?

Judge away, mate, I don't honestly give a shit.

We live on the same planet and what one country does heavily affects other countries. Especially if the one country is armed with nuclear weapons and is a major driver of climate change.

So you're talking about China?

And what the fuck does that have to do with Florida's response to corona virus?

[laklak]

that's the third time I've pressed the fucking quote key instead of edit

[laklak]

dup

[laklak]

On present form, the difference, the losses will be passed onto the government who will then borrow and cut spending, and so, there be way or another the taxpayer covers the cost. This has a terrible effect on the real economy and people lose their jobs, can't buy as much stuff or make rent or mortgage payments, can't get access to essential services. This is called Austerity, and although those who have directly benefited from shorting the taxpayer say that Austerity is necessary, along with lower business and personal taxes while you're at it, to 'save the economy', it's actually a system to transfer wealth from the poor to the wealthy - to socialise profits and nationalise losses. So yeah, there's a choice to be made, it's just not the one you think it is.

Yeah but how do you actually implement that choice, without destroying basically everything in the process? I get what you're saying, but I'm not seeing anything resembling a PLAN.

[laklak]

I mean let's say we decide that there are no rent or mortgage payments for the next 3 months. What do all those people who own those little rental properties do? As a (former) landlord I can testify that covering the mortgage payment isn't all that rent money did, it paid for everything else we needed - food, petrol, insurance, whatever. How do you take care of me, or as a landlord do you just hang me from the nearest lamppost? What do the mortgage holders do? What do the people who work for the mortgage holders do? How does that actually work?

[Animavore]

Hey, I'm not telling you how to live, am I? Am I constantly ragging on Ireland or the UK or EU for how you decide to do things? Why do you feel it necessary to try to tell me how I should be living?

Judge away, mate, I don't honestly give a shit.

I'm not telling you anything. Was just rolling my eyes at the hyperbole. Lockdown isn't even that bad. Humans have been through far worse in the past. We're so pampered now it just takes minor inconvenience to set people off.

[Seabass]

Why shouldn't we, The Great State of Florida, open our economy back up? We're doing as well or better than pretty much any EU country including Germany. We've had under 1700 deaths. 1700 in a population of nearly 23 million, we've flattened the curve, our numbers of cases are decreasing daily, we've got massive ICU space. Not a mass grave to be seen. We're going to destroy our entire economy and way of life for that? Bullshit. Somebody has to take the chance or we're fucking toast. Do any of you honestly think teh gummint can feed ALL of us for the next, what, six months? Year? I've heard TWO years from some idiots. What fucking planet to you live on? These people can't organize a fucking piss up in a brewery, EVERY single thing they touch turns to shit. More to the point, what fucking planet do you want to live on? One where some faceless bureaucrat makes every decision for you? One where you're just one small happy little citizen cog in the Great Collective? One where you get a ration card for a bag of root vegetables, 30 grams of chocolate, and a half a chicken a week? Maybe a fifth of oily Victory Gin if you know somebody. Is life really worth that much to you?

Fuck that shit for a game of soldiers. I am not, nor will I ever be, a happy little socialist drone being told by my betters how to live my life because some bureaucratic apparatchik decided what constitutes the "good of the many". I'm old enough and ugly enough to make my own decisions, thanks anyway. Maybe y'all (or some of y'all) are good with that, but I sure as hell ain't. i'll take the chance it croaks me, fuck it. No one is stopping anyone from continuing to self isolate, no body is being forced to go to restaurants. Take care of your own damn self, and I'll take care of me.

The infection is only transmissible for two weeks. South Korea didn't even have to shut down.

The planet I want to live on is the one where we take scientists more seriously than a birdbrain who thinks you can cure a virus by injecting disinfectant.

[JimC]

Why shouldn't we, The Great State of Florida, open our economy back up? We're doing as well or better than pretty much any EU country including Germany. We've had under 1700 deaths. 1700 in a population of nearly 23 million, we've flattened the curve, our numbers of cases are decreasing daily, we've got massive ICU space. Not a mass grave to be seen. We're going to destroy our entire economy and way of life for that? Bullshit. Somebody has to take the chance or we're fucking toast. Do any of you honestly think teh gummint can feed ALL of us for the next, what, six months? Year? I've heard TWO years from some idiots. What fucking planet to you live on? These people can't organize a fucking piss up in a brewery, EVERY single thing they touch turns to shit. More to the point, what fucking planet do you want to live on? One where some faceless bureaucrat makes every decision for you? One where you're just one small happy little citizen cog in the Great Collective? One where you get a ration card for a bag of root vegetables, 30 grams of chocolate, and a half a chicken a week? Maybe a fifth of oily Victory Gin if you know somebody. Is life really worth that much to you?

Fuck that shit for a game of soldiers. I am not, nor will I ever be, a happy little socialist drone being told by my betters how to live my life because some bureaucratic apparatchik decided what constitutes the "good of the many". I'm old enough and ugly enough to make my own decisions, thanks anyway. Maybe y'all (or some of y'all) are good with that, but I sure as hell ain't. i'll take the chance it croaks me, fuck it. No one is stopping anyone from continuing to self isolate, no body is being forced to go to restaurants. Take care of your own damn self, and I'll take care of me.

lak, timing a return to "normal" should be a careful juggling act by people who really know their shit. It is very unlikely to take 6 months, let alone 2 years. If your rate of new infections keeps gong down, and if you have a very robust process of testing, tracking and isolating, then in a few weeks you can do a carefully staged process of opening up society and your economy. Don't let the inevitable frustration with a lockdown lead to a premature release, and a dangerous second spike.

Oz has a similar population to Florida. But, we've had less than 100 deaths, and new cases per day are varying between 5 and 20. We are going to be starting a very cautious process of staged opening in the next few days, monitoring the effect on infection rates as we go. It ain't rocket science, but it's doable...

[NineBerry]

I mean let's say we decide that there are no rent or mortgage payments for the next 3 months. What do all those people who own those little rental properties do? As a (former) landlord I can testify that covering the mortgage payment isn't all that rent money did, it paid for everything else we needed - food, petrol, insurance, whatever. How do you take care of me, or as a landlord do you just hang me from the nearest lamppost? What do the mortgage holders do? What do the people who work for the mortgage holders do? How does that actually work?

What happens if you evict the tenant who cannot pay their rent? Do you think you'll get a new one in these times? What happens after this is over? Do you think your former tenant will return when you fucked them over when they were in need?

Choice is:

* No rent for two or three months. And then receive rent again from the same tenant when they have enough money again. And if the tenant is lucky and does good business then, they might even repay some of the missed rent payments.
* No rent for who knows how long if you will ever find a new tenant.

If your business depends on getting rent payments every month and you fail if you miss out a few months, then you failed at building up your business because vacancy can happen any time for any reason.

What do the mortgage holders do? What do the people who work for the mortgage holders do? How does that actually work?

If they are employees and cannot work or work a reduced time because their employer cannot currently run their business: Receive money as usual from employer, partly getting only up to 30% reduction (based on family size and willingness of employer to pay voluntary bonuses). Employer gets that money from unemployment insurance which has a huge reserve fund for exactly this purpose. If the 30% reduction would mean falling below the poverty line, receive government benefits and maybe housing benefits (State paying your rent).

If they are self-employed or a business owner: Go to their house bank and receive a crisis handout from the government and if requested, a special credit that you don't need your own securities but that is secured by a public bank which was specifically created for these purposes (Kreditanstalt für Wiederaufbau). You can also legally defer paying rents for your business properties during the crisis.

[Brian Peacock]

On present form, the difference, the losses will be passed onto the government who will then borrow and cut spending, and so, there be way or another the taxpayer covers the cost. This has a terrible effect on the real economy and people lose their jobs, can't buy as much stuff or make rent or mortgage payments, can't get access to essential services. This is called Austerity, and although those who have directly benefited from shorting the taxpayer say that Austerity is necessary, along with lower business and personal taxes while you're at it, to 'save the economy', it's actually a system to transfer wealth from the poor to the wealthy - to socialise profits and nationalise losses. So yeah, there's a choice to be made, it's just not the one you think it is.

Yeah but how do you actually implement that choice, without destroying basically everything in the process? I get what you're saying, but I'm not seeing anything resembling a PLAN.

Well, putting money into the real economy is a start. After all, everything you or the government spend basically ends up as someone else's wages, and has a multiplying effect in the economy. If these top flight companies are really too big to fail and vital to the nation then rather than generating cash hand outs support them and take an equity stake in them, which will return liquidity back to the government and into the real economy. Forbid company directors and CEOs from benefiting directly from cash bailouts because nobody who's on a lottery win sized salary needs to double their income during a public health emergency when the government has effectively saved your business. And raise taxes on those most able to pay them.

[laklak]

The infection is only transmissible for two weeks. South Korea didn't even have to shut down.

The planet I want to live on is the one where we take scientists more seriously than a birdbrain who thinks you can cure a virus by injecting disinfectant.

I don't give a fuck what Trump thinks, he has absolutely nothing to do with the decisions we need to make on a state level. I also don't care who is in charge of the state, GOP or Dems, it doesn't matter. The science said we needed to flatten the curve. We've done that (I'm only speaking for Florida here). We needed to get on the far side of the infection bell curve. We've done that. We've implemented every suggestion, and from what we're seeing it is working.

I'll ask again, why should we NOT start a phased reopening?

What is it, given our numbers that should prevent that?

[Cunt]

It's not socialism to have insurance systems in place to make sure everyone is cared for in the case of a catastrophe.

No, the socialism part is where you, at the point of a sword, force people to pay this 'insurance' you describe.

Some will die from virus. Some from shutdown effects.

Not taking either number seriously would be stupid.

Nope

Can't disagree with you there. You must be right, look how many words you put.

I'll ask again, why should we NOT start a phased reopening?

What is it, given our numbers that should prevent that?

It has to happen, but as long as people pretend the economy doesn't matter as much as Nana, they can put on a smug smile. Heck, they can probably even find studies, and stuff.

It will happen, organized or not.

People don't have much experience with 'hungry', so don't understand the danger.

[Brian Peacock]

I mean let's say we decide that there are no rent or mortgage payments for the next 3 months. What do all those people who own those little rental properties do? As a (former) landlord I can testify that covering the mortgage payment isn't all that rent money did, it paid for everything else we needed - food, petrol, insurance, whatever. How do you take care of me, or as a landlord do you just hang me from the nearest lamppost? What do the mortgage holders do? What do the people who work for the mortgage holders do? How does that actually work?

The UK has mortgage holidays for landlords. Unfortunately they didn't require landlords to pass that saving onto tenents in the form of rent holidays. But the UK has also expanded programs to cover the unemployed, and the self-employed, to pay 80% of furloughed workers incomes, one off grants to small and medium sized businesses, low cost business loans as well as the QE for finance and corporations. I'm loathed to say it, the Tories have basically been doing the right thing so far even if they've been nagged into it - though they're coming under increasing and sustained pressure atm from their donors and the billionaire press. You'll no doubt be able to guess which measures they say need to be dropped to save the economy because 'we' can't afford it.

[NineBerry]

It's not socialism to have insurance systems in place to make sure everyone is cared for in the case of a catastrophe.

No, the socialism part is where you, at the point of a sword, force people to pay this 'insurance' you describe.

Is that the same sword that is used to force you to pay money to build roads, buy tanks and pay judges?

How about the snowy forests you go running in? Is that your private forest? Do you pay entrance fees to the private owner? Or is the forest owned by the state and maintenance of the forest is paid for by other people who are forced at the point of the sword to pay their hard-earned money so that you can go running for free?

Or is it even worse and the forest is actually owned by a private party but the socialist states forces them pay their own good money for maintenance and still allow you to roam there for free?

[Seabass]

The infection is only transmissible for two weeks. South Korea didn't even have to shut down.

The planet I want to live on is the one where we take scientists more seriously than a birdbrain who thinks you can cure a virus by injecting disinfectant.

I don't give a fuck what Trump thinks, he has absolutely nothing to do with the decisions we need to make on a state level. I also don't care who is in charge of the state, GOP or Dems, it doesn't matter. The science said we needed to flatten the curve. We've done that (I'm only speaking for Florida here). We needed to get on the far side of the infection bell curve. We've done that. We've implemented every suggestion, and from what we're seeing it is working.

I'll ask again, why should we NOT start a phased reopening?

What is it, given our numbers that should prevent that?

You start opening back up when you have ample testing and contact tracing in place.