Trump and ethnic cleansing

[Sean Hayden]

I want open borders

Did you have to say that? Now Cunt will finally have someone to point to when he claims lefties want open borders.

--oops

[pErvinalia]

edit: reading fail.

[Seabass]

Actually, it may be the backlash against Obama's first term when he allowed ICE to expand that has made Trump's attempts fail.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wsj.co ... 1564824601

Biden has recently called their deportation record a mistake.

I think Clinton may have deported even more than them all.

You haven't shown ethnic cleansing either, that was the point of the absurd comparison to deportation by me. But, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that it is in fact considered such.

--see above--

You mean that gish gallop, no thanks.

One minute you're accusing me of not providing context, and when I provide context, you write it off as "gish gallop". What the hell is your problem? I provided links to articles that are germane to the topic. What's wrong with that? Do you want me to provide context or not? Make up your mind.

Look, deporting people who are here illegally isn't ethnic cleansing. In my opinion however, taking a holistic approach to removing as many non-white immigrants as possible by any and all legal means could be considered ethnic cleansing. Why remove Vietnamese and Liberian refugees who've been here for decades? Does that "secure our borders"? How does that make America great again? Why try to remove kids who are here legally, who are receiving life-saving treatment, who would surely die if deported? Does that secure our borders? Nothing Obama, Bush, or Clinton did is in the same league as this Trump shit. You'd have to go back to the Chinese Exclusion Act to find something as racist as Trump's policies.

[Sean Hayden]

It's gish gallop because of the number of claims being made. Even if I found one wasn't exactly what was being presented, I'd still have a dozen more to work through, and you'd have moved on by then.

e.g. Do you believe Obama's deportations didn't lead to tragic outcomes like those your headlines are now trying to suggest are the result of Trump specifically?

I actually did a little time in Harris County when ICE was ramping up. I was amazed by how often they came in to pick up/question/whatever the Mexicans. I remember thinking it was crazy how it went from mostly blacks when I was a teen to mostly Mexicans! It was too obvious to miss. I'm sure the pain was fierce then too. Why else have a backlash?

But let's back up. Let's agree Trump is a piece of shit, that white supremacists support him. How does that make us close to Nazi Germany, or his many other supporters in favor of ethnic cleansing?

[JimC]

The most obvious, albeit indirect form of ethnic cleansing in the US has been made more obvious by the current pandemic. The poverty and subsequent health issues of African Americans leaves them exposed to dying by COVID-19 at a much greater rate than white folk:

https://www.theage.com.au/world/north-a ... 54ov6.html

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, that is a major failing of the right's philosophy. It just denies the existence of a problem, choosing instead to believe all is right in the world, except where individuals fail to take advantage of opportunity.

[Seabass]

It's gish gallop because of the number of claims being made. Even if I found one wasn't exactly what was being presented, I'd still have a dozen more to work through, and you'd have moved on by then.

I didn't post much that hasn't already been posted in all the Trump threads. I only consolidated that info in OP to remind people of what's been going on over the last three years. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

e.g. Do you believe Obama's deportations didn't lead to tragic outcomes like those your headlines are now trying to suggest are the result of Trump specifically?

Of course they did. So what?

In my opinion, there is rational justification for removing people who are here illegally. There is no reason to remove sick children who are here LEGALLY who will likely die if deported. There is no justification for removing Vietnamese refugees who are here LEGALLY and have been here for decades. There is nothing that justifies deporting soldiers who served in our military who were told that they would receive citizenship in exchange for service.

I actually did a little time in Harris County when ICE was ramping up. I was amazed by how often they came in to pick up/question/whatever the Mexicans. I remember thinking it was crazy how it went from mostly blacks when I was a teen to mostly Mexicans! It was too obvious to miss. I'm sure the pain was fierce then too. Why else have a backlash?

But let's back up. Let's agree Trump is a piece of shit, that white supremacists support him. How does that make us close to Nazi Germany, or his many other supporters in favor of ethnic cleansing?

Well, here's what we can say: his supporters either support Trump's immigration policies, or or okay with his immigration policies, or are oblivious to what's happening in this country. Either way, they're ready to vote for more of it come November.

When I mention Nazi Germany, I'm not talking about a mature, 1940s Nazi Germany. I'm talking about Nazi Germany circa 1920-1930. There are a lot of parallels. The scapegoating of minorities, the rise in racism and xenophobia, the rise of a charismatic strongman who holds frequent hate rallies, the rise in violence against minorities, the vilification of the press, conservative factions showing a willingness to do whatever the strongman wants so long as they get what they want, etc...

[Sean Hayden]

It's gish gallop because of the number of claims being made. Even if I found one wasn't exactly what was being presented, I'd still have a dozen more to work through, and you'd have moved on by then.

I didn't post much that hasn't already been posted in all the Trump threads. I only consolidated that info in OP to remind people of what's been going on over the last three years. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

e.g. Do you believe Obama's deportations didn't lead to tragic outcomes like those your headlines are now trying to suggest are the result of Trump specifically?

Of course they did. So what?

In my opinion, there is rational justification for removing people who are here illegally. There is no reason to remove sick children who are here LEGALLY who will likely die if deported. There is no justification for removing Vietnamese refugees who are here LEGALLY and have been here for decades. There is nothing that justifies deporting soldiers who served in our military who were told that they would receive citizenship in exchange for service.

I actually did a little time in Harris County when ICE was ramping up. I was amazed by how often they came in to pick up/question/whatever the Mexicans. I remember thinking it was crazy how it went from mostly blacks when I was a teen to mostly Mexicans! It was too obvious to miss. I'm sure the pain was fierce then too. Why else have a backlash?

But let's back up. Let's agree Trump is a piece of shit, that white supremacists support him. How does that make us close to Nazi Germany, or his many other supporters in favor of ethnic cleansing?

Well, here's what we can say: his supporters either support Trump's immigration policies, or or okay with his immigration policies, or are oblivious to what's happening in this country. Either way, they're ready to vote for more of it come November.

When I mention Nazi Germany, I'm not talking about a mature, 1940s Nazi Germany. I'm talking about Nazi Germany circa 1920-1930. There are a lot of parallels. The scapegoating of minorities, the rise in racism and xenophobia, the rise of a charismatic strongman who holds frequent hate rallies, the rise in violence against minorities, the vilification of the press, conservative factions showing a willingness to do whatever the strongman wants so long as they get what they want, etc...

"Of course they did, so what?" Well, I don't like my support being used to implement policy that leads to greater harm than good. I didn't agree to it, and I'm arguing that your average Trump supporter doesn't agree to anything you are accusing them of here. They don't support ethnic cleansing, they aren't Nazis. They want a more secure border.

As for the continued attempt to compare us to Nazi Germany, it's just a non-starter. Ignoring the completely different set of factors at play in Europe, racism is down, the population is more mixed than ever, opinions have been moving left for ages...

--//--

What is it with you guys and legal vs illegal immigrants? I don't get it. If you can get here legally, that's awesome, but surely you can't expect everyone to be able to do that. Why do legal immigrants get mad at it? Is it really just butt hurt about the process they went through? Well, lighten up, whatever you did legally isn't nearly the pain-in-the-ass of being illegal! --cry babies.

[Seabass]

It's gish gallop because of the number of claims being made. Even if I found one wasn't exactly what was being presented, I'd still have a dozen more to work through, and you'd have moved on by then.

I didn't post much that hasn't already been posted in all the Trump threads. I only consolidated that info in OP to remind people of what's been going on over the last three years. I'm not trying to fool anyone.

e.g. Do you believe Obama's deportations didn't lead to tragic outcomes like those your headlines are now trying to suggest are the result of Trump specifically?

Of course they did. So what?

In my opinion, there is rational justification for removing people who are here illegally. There is no reason to remove sick children who are here LEGALLY who will likely die if deported. There is no justification for removing Vietnamese refugees who are here LEGALLY and have been here for decades. There is nothing that justifies deporting soldiers who served in our military who were told that they would receive citizenship in exchange for service.

I actually did a little time in Harris County when ICE was ramping up. I was amazed by how often they came in to pick up/question/whatever the Mexicans. I remember thinking it was crazy how it went from mostly blacks when I was a teen to mostly Mexicans! It was too obvious to miss. I'm sure the pain was fierce then too. Why else have a backlash?

But let's back up. Let's agree Trump is a piece of shit, that white supremacists support him. How does that make us close to Nazi Germany, or his many other supporters in favor of ethnic cleansing?

Well, here's what we can say: his supporters either support Trump's immigration policies, or or okay with his immigration policies, or are oblivious to what's happening in this country. Either way, they're ready to vote for more of it come November.

When I mention Nazi Germany, I'm not talking about a mature, 1940s Nazi Germany. I'm talking about Nazi Germany circa 1920-1930. There are a lot of parallels. The scapegoating of minorities, the rise in racism and xenophobia, the rise of a charismatic strongman who holds frequent hate rallies, the rise in violence against minorities, the vilification of the press, conservative factions showing a willingness to do whatever the strongman wants so long as they get what they want, etc...

"Of course they did, so what?" Well, I don't like my support being used to implement policy that leads to greater harm than good. I didn't agree to it, and I'm arguing that your average Trump supporter doesn't agree to anything you are accusing them of here. They don't support ethnic cleansing, they aren't Nazis. They want a more secure border.

As for the continued attempt to compare us to Nazi Germany, it's just a non-starter. Ignoring the completely different set of factors at play in Europe, racism is down, the population is more mixed than ever, opinions have been moving left for ages...

--//--

What is it with you guys and legal vs illegal immigrants? I don't get it. If you can get here legally, that's awesome, but surely you can't expect everyone to be able to do that. Why do legal immigrants get mad at it? Is it really just butt hurt about the process they went through? Well, lighten up, whatever you did legally isn't nearly the pain-in-the-ass of being illegal! --cry babies.

Racism is down? Compared to what, the 1950s? Sure. Racist violence from white nationalists has gone up over the last four years. We've seen a massive upswing in xenophobia since 9/11, too.

Ethnic diversity is up, but that doesn't mean racism can't be up too. The two aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, increasing diversity appears to be one of the top reasons for increasing racism and xenophobia. Just watch some Fox News primetime and see what Tucker and Ingraham are saying.

Regarding deportations, it's not like I'm some gungho advocate of ruthlessly tossing all illegal immigrants out. I'm just saying I understand why governments deport people who aren't here legally. No country can be expected to take everyone who wants to come. However, I see no rational or moral justification for deporting MAVNI soldiers, TPS recipients, or children who are here legally receiving life-saving treatment. Frankly, like you, I support open borders, eventually (sorry, pErv ). Obviously our species hasn't evolved culturally to a point where we can actually make that happen. There has to be unanimous support among all nations, and an agreed upon framework for implementation, and we humans are just too dumb to make that happen at this point in our history.

[pErvinalia]

Cunt hasn't noticed yet. We might be safe!

[Sean Hayden]

Yeah, racism is down. I'm not sure what the increase in hate crimes is supposed to mean in this context. They've been higher in years without Trump. They've been both lower and higher recently. The numbers look relatively fixed. What doesn't however, would be any examination of attitudes through the years that I've ever looked at. They consistently show racism is declining.

[Cunt]

racism is declining.

It is, as all the evidence shows.

What IS increasing though, is the desprate attempt to find racism in every system, every power structure.


In a desperate attempt to find racism everywhere, it leads some to FIND it everywhere.

Like claiming legal vs illegal immgration distinctions are 'racist', or suggesting that an American citizen who openly advocates for secure borders, MUST be a racist.

It's incoherent nonsense at best, virtue signalling at worst, and racist itself.

[Seabass]

Yeah, racism is down. I'm not sure what the increase in hate crimes is supposed to mean in this context. They've been higher in years without Trump. They've been both lower and higher recently. The numbers look relatively fixed. What doesn't however, would be any examination of attitudes through the years that I've ever looked at. They consistently show racism is declining.

White Supremacist Propaganda and Events Soared in 2018
https://www.adl.org/news/press-releases ... ed-in-2018

New York, NY, March 5, 2019 … White supremacists dramatically stepped up their propaganda efforts targeting neighborhoods and campuses in 2018, far exceeding any previous annual distribution count for the United States and showing how these extremist groups are finding ways to share hateful messages while hiding the identity of individual members.

Newly released data from ADL (the Anti-Defamation League) shows white supremacists’ propaganda efforts increased 182 percent, with 1,187 distributions across the U.S. in 2018, up from 421 total incidents reported in 2017.

The number of racist rallies and demonstrations also rose last year, although on a more modest scale. At least 91 white supremacist rallies or other public events attended by white supremacist were held in 2018, up from 76 the previous year, with hate groups increasingly employing “flash mob” tactics to avoid advance publicity and scrutiny.

The number of non-campus community propaganda efforts skyrocketed to 868 in 2018, up from 129 incidents in 2017. Alt right groups were responsible for the majority of these efforts. Patriot Front led the way with 324 literature distributions, while 312 incidents were linked to Identity Evropa. Daily Stormer followers were responsible for 34.

ADL recorded 319 incidents of white supremacist propaganda appearing on 212 college and university campuses in 37 states and in Washington, D.C. This was up from 292 campus incidents in 2017. Identity Evropa and Patriot Front were responsible for the bulk of campus incidents.

Klan groups noticeably increased their propaganda efforts. In 2018, there were 97 incidents in which Klan fliers were left on doorsteps or driveways in neighborhoods, a 20 percent increase from the preceding four-year average of 77 annual incidents. At least 11 different Klan groups took part in leafleting efforts across the U.S.

The 2018 propaganda incidents were predominantly concentrated in large metropolitan areas, with the highest activity levels in California, Texas, Colorado, New York, Illinois, Florida and Virginia. But numerous smaller communities were targeted, too.

The alt right continued to use banners to promote their message as well. In 2018, ADL counted 32 instances where white supremacist banners were hung in high-visibility locations such as highway overpasses. The Texas-based Patriot Front, the country’s second-largest alt right group, used banners the most in 2018, deploying them 21 times.

Flash demonstrations – unannounced, quickly disbanded gatherings – proved a viable alternative to pre-announced events for the two most active alt right groups. Identity Evropa and Patriot Front held more than 30 flash demonstrations last year. These groups were also responsible for the two largest white supremacist flash demonstrations in 2018, held in Nashville and Washington, D.C.

[Seabass]

racism is declining.

It is, as all the evidence shows.

THE YEAR IN HATE 2019: WHITE NATIONALIST GROUPS RISE FOR A SECOND YEAR IN A ROW – UP 55% SINCE 2017
https://www.splcenter.org/presscenter/y ... ow-55-2017

MONTGOMERY, Ala. – A white nationalist movement that was emboldened by the election of Donald Trump grew for a second straight year in 2019, as the number of hate groups in the movement rose to 155 – a 55 percent increase since 2017, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center’s annual Year in Hate and Extremism report released today.

Overall, the SPLC identified 940 hate groups operating across the country in 2019, a slight decline from the all-time high of 1,020 in 2018. More than half of the decline was due to a drop in the number of neo-Nazi groups, as two main factions collapsed amid leadership turmoil. Of the groups listed, most adhere to some form of white supremacist ideology.

The SPLC’s annual hate group count and analysis can be read online, along with an updated map showing the locations of hate groups nationwide, at www.splcenter.org.

“Make no mistake: We have a crisis of hate and extremism in our country – and the toxic ideas propagated by these hate groups not only lead to violence but erode the very foundations of our democracy,” said Lecia Brooks, spokesperson for SPLC. “The attacks in El Paso, Texas, and Poway, California, are stark reminders of the serious threat posed by white supremacist ideology and those it motivates to act. Each of these attacks – as well as thousands of hate crimes across the country – was inspired by white supremacist propaganda.”

[Seabass]

racism is declining.

Hate groups reach record high
https://www.splcenter.org/news/2019/02/ ... ecord-high

The number of hate groups operating across America rose to a record high – 1,020 – in 2018 as President Trump continued to fan the flames of white resentment over immigration and the country’s changing demographics.

It was the fourth straight year of hate group growth – a 30 percent increase roughly coinciding with Trump’s campaign and presidency – following three consecutive years of decline near the end of the Obama administration.

At the same time, racist and antisemitic violence continued to plague the country, following the same escalating pattern as hate groups. FBI statistics show that hate crimes increased by 30 percent in the three-year period ending in 2017. (The FBI has not released figures for 2018.) The increase followed a three-year period in which hate crime incidents fell by about 12 percent.

The SPLC’s annual hate group count and analysis is contained in the Spring edition of the Intelligence Report, released today.

The SPLC today also launched an updated, interactive hate map showing the locations of hate groups nationwide.

“The numbers tell a striking story – that this president is not simply a polarizing figure but a radicalizing one,” said Heidi Beirich, director of the SPLC’s Intelligence Project. “Rather than trying to tamp down hate, as presidents of both parties have done, President Trump elevates it – with both his rhetoric and his policies. In doing so, he’s given people across America the go-ahead to act on their worst instincts.”

Trump was not alone in spreading fear about the country’s growing diversity. Fox News served as both his megaphone and a source for his incendiary claims during 2018. Aided by a chorus of supporters in right-wing media outlets and the advisers in his administration with hate group sympathies, Trump enacted a raft of policies straight out of the radical-right playbook.