Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Hermit » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:32 am

Svartalf wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:05 am
Hermit wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:55 am
laklak wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:54 am
Feudalism would be a better solution, as long as you're at least landed gentry or minor nobility. Peasants - not so much, but hey, they're just peasants.
You think? In feudal societies the likelihood of literally getting the axe or dying violently through human action is too high for my liking. Being a member of a royal family, major aristocrats, minor nobles or landed gentry granted no immunity from that. Everyone basically lived and died at the caprice of warlords, and the warlords themselves only lived for as long as the fortunes of war favoured them. Feudalism is a damn sight less civilised than capitalism.
You have too brutal a view of feudal societies... remember, France was nominally feudal till 1789, and the age of warlords was past...
Kings were warlords too. Louis XIV was a particularly competent one. Louis XVI not so much, but in 1780 he was still powerful enough to order 6000 of his subjects to war against the British in what was to become the USA.
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Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:15 pm
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:04 pm

Louis XIV was not that competent as a warlord, he did not win all his wars, and his grasp of economics was so thin he bankrupted the country in waging them, combined to Louis XV general inefficiency, the revolution takes its roots there.

and Louis XVI did not order anybody to go support the American revolutionaries, they all went independently, offering him plausible deniability, even if the state of relations between France and england at the time would indeed have warranted France supporting enemies of the red lobsters.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:33 pm

Feudalism is alive and well. Not only do we see it played out between so-called 'warlords' in disordered societies, and between and within criminal groups in ordered societies, but one might say that its precepts and structures are still expressed through bartered systems of national and international economics - where modern peasants, villeins, and serfs (the working class) are obliged to live according to conditions imposed from above and to pay 'homage' (labour, taxes, rent, interest) to the vassal class (service suppliers, employers) before meeting their own needs, where the vassals are granted a franchise by the nobility (investors, shareholders, incorporated institutions) who acquire special rights of operation from the Crown (governments) who in turn maintain and enforce the structural systems negotiated with the nobility through the rule of law (where the State makes the rules and calls it 'the law'). As in the feudalism of yore, the nobility are the linchpin of the entire system - lending support to the nominal Crown (political parties) in exchange for protection (legally-backed right to exploit the rest of society).
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:49 pm

Hermit, the Hasburgs were not Dutch! Feudalism was imposed by various empires but it was not Dutch. The Dutch have never known feudalism. The Republiek der Zeven Verenigde Nederlanden was the rise of Nederland as a country and before that it did not exist.

Talk about :flog:
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:57 pm

Well, nex you'll tell us that the count of Flanders was Belgian? You'll forgive me if I deem that Flemish and Dutch speaking places before 1830 were Dutch. And around 1300 the count of Flanders was a vassal of the King of France, except his free towns led him to revolt, and the burgher armies had an unexpected victory in Kortrijk in 1302... among the dead was the count of Artois whose succession would plague the French court for decades and have an incidence on the start of the 100 year war... feudalism at work.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:07 pm

Image :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:13 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:57 pm
Well, nex you'll tell us that the count of Flanders was Belgian? You'll forgive me if I deem that Flemish and Dutch speaking places before 1830 were Dutch. And around 1300 the count of Flanders was a vassal of the King of France, except his free towns led him to revolt, and the burgher armies had an unexpected victory in Kortrijk in 1302... among the dead was the count of Artois whose succession would plague the French court for decades and have an incidence on the start of the 100 year war... feudalism at work.
Just how is that feudalism? Burger armies are not very feudal.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:22 pm

they were levied by their feudal count.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:28 pm

Lead by the count ok but they are burger armies not subject to feudal rules and rose up by themselves.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:50 pm

Yeah, they were mostly burgher insurgents, but they still were part of a feudal system, and revolted against French supremacy over their country, not against their own feudal nobles.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by laklak » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:58 pm

I still want to be a Count or Baron or something.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Scot Dutchy » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:14 pm

How about a "Graaf". I think we have one left.
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by laklak » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:24 pm

As long as I have some men-at-arms I'll take what I can get. I want to ride down some unruly peasants.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Svartalf » Wed Feb 19, 2020 2:29 pm

remember that them unruly peasants are your work for, if you disable them, they won't be able to have produce to sell to pay your taxes
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Re: Capitalism, The Best Solution to Poverty

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Feb 19, 2020 7:12 pm

... and if you don't pay your tribute to the Crown ....

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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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