The Trump Impeachment

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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:32 pm

Joe wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:04 pm
Yeahbut, would this House impeach a Democratic President for what Trump did? :dunno:
I've thought about this, and I have my doubts. It is conceivable though, if a Democratic president had the same history of cuddling up to dictators and contempt for the norms (and laws) that have helped safeguard the republic. Add to this a number of shady characters in the president's orbit going to prison, but specifically in at least one case for being the stooge who carried out illegal actions meant to enhance election prospects at the direction of the future president. The Ukraine caper is by no means Trump's first foray into crooked dealings when it comes to electoral politics.

Once an investigation started (if it ever did) and a Democratic president had engaged in blatant contempt of Congress by refusing outright to allow witnesses to testify and flouting congressional subpoenas to provide documents, I think that the 2nd article would definitely be included.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Joe » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:33 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:32 pm
Joe wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:04 pm
Yeahbut, would this House impeach a Democratic President for what Trump did? :dunno:
I've thought about this, and I have my doubts. It is conceivable though, if a Democratic president had the same history of cuddling up to dictators and contempt for the norms (and laws) that have helped safeguard the republic. Add to this a number of shady characters in the president's orbit going to prison, but specifically in at least one case for being the stooge who carried out illegal actions meant to enhance election prospects at the direction of the future president. The Ukraine caper is by no means Trump's first foray into crooked dealings when it comes to electoral politics.

Once an investigation started (if it ever did) and a Democratic president had engaged in blatant contempt of Congress by refusing outright to allow witnesses to testify and flouting congressional subpoenas to provide documents, I think that the 2nd article would definitely be included.
Yeah, I've chewed on this quite a bit, and the Democrats seem to be, on average, more attached to our norms and the rule of law than the Republicans. They may be more likely to do the right thing with one of their own than the GOP, and if the bill of particulars you've listed were the entirety of the matter, I think they would.

However, if they were getting from a Democratic President what the GOP is getting from Trump: judges, massive fundraising, and a pumped up base, I 'm not so sure.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by JimC » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:18 pm

I am very tempted to say that campaign funding (particularly from corporations, pressure groups or the ultra-wealthy) is the rot at the heart of any democratic system. It automatically leads to corrupt decision making, where politicians make voting decisions based on the favours they owe rather than the public good.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Tero » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:41 pm

Joe, all part of the plan. The libertarians/ hillbillies that sent Trump to DC to dismantle or at least disable government have no need for founding fathers, except for guns.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Tero » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:45 pm

JimC wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:18 pm
I am very tempted to say that campaign funding (particularly from corporations, pressure groups or the ultra-wealthy) is the rot at the heart of any democratic system. It automatically leads to corrupt decision making, where politicians make voting decisions based on the favours they owe rather than the public good.
I have so much science and natural history to read that I did not get around to this book, which would explain all:

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Money-Histo ... ney&sr=8-1

Some of it got going earlier (but not the 60s) but it is going to say this really took over at Reagan and after that.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:48 pm

Has Trump and the Republicans now effectively defined the presidency as an office akin to that of an elected absolute monarch?

In other words, could any future US president now stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and get away with it?
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm

Joe wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:33 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:32 pm
Joe wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:04 pm
Yeahbut, would this House impeach a Democratic President for what Trump did? :dunno:
I've thought about this, and I have my doubts. It is conceivable though, if a Democratic president had the same history of cuddling up to dictators and contempt for the norms (and laws) that have helped safeguard the republic. Add to this a number of shady characters in the president's orbit going to prison, but specifically in at least one case for being the stooge who carried out illegal actions meant to enhance election prospects at the direction of the future president. The Ukraine caper is by no means Trump's first foray into crooked dealings when it comes to electoral politics.

Once an investigation started (if it ever did) and a Democratic president had engaged in blatant contempt of Congress by refusing outright to allow witnesses to testify and flouting congressional subpoenas to provide documents, I think that the 2nd article would definitely be included.
Yeah, I've chewed on this quite a bit, and the Democrats seem to be, on average, more attached to our norms and the rule of law than the Republicans. They may be more likely to do the right thing with one of their own than the GOP, and if the bill of particulars you've listed were the entirety of the matter, I think they would.

However, if they were getting from a Democratic President what the GOP is getting from Trump: judges, massive fundraising, and a pumped up base, I 'm not so sure.
There is a difference though. The Democratic voting public hasn't been primed through decades of vitriol being dripped into their ears by ranting right wing talk radio, Fox News, and online propaganda like Breitbart to look at the world of domestic politics as a pitched battle between True American Patriots and a force intent on elevating deviants, instituting socialism and the hatred of America, babies, and Jesus Christ Our Savior. The RINO label has been used to purge pretty much all of the Republican politicians who don't cater to that mindset.

It's not that it would be impossible to play the Democratic public and align them behind an obvious, shameless demagogue, but the groundwork hasn't been covered that would make it as easy as it was for Trump. I know that Trumpists would jump up and down yelling about 'left-wing lamestream media' and they're not completely off base there, but it's not really the same sort of beast at all.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Seabass » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:07 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm
Joe wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:33 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:32 pm
Joe wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:04 pm
Yeahbut, would this House impeach a Democratic President for what Trump did? :dunno:
I've thought about this, and I have my doubts. It is conceivable though, if a Democratic president had the same history of cuddling up to dictators and contempt for the norms (and laws) that have helped safeguard the republic. Add to this a number of shady characters in the president's orbit going to prison, but specifically in at least one case for being the stooge who carried out illegal actions meant to enhance election prospects at the direction of the future president. The Ukraine caper is by no means Trump's first foray into crooked dealings when it comes to electoral politics.

Once an investigation started (if it ever did) and a Democratic president had engaged in blatant contempt of Congress by refusing outright to allow witnesses to testify and flouting congressional subpoenas to provide documents, I think that the 2nd article would definitely be included.
Yeah, I've chewed on this quite a bit, and the Democrats seem to be, on average, more attached to our norms and the rule of law than the Republicans. They may be more likely to do the right thing with one of their own than the GOP, and if the bill of particulars you've listed were the entirety of the matter, I think they would.

However, if they were getting from a Democratic President what the GOP is getting from Trump: judges, massive fundraising, and a pumped up base, I 'm not so sure.
There is a difference though. The Democratic voting public hasn't been primed through decades of vitriol being dripped into their ears by ranting right wing talk radio, Fox News, and online propaganda like Breitbart to look at the world of domestic politics as a pitched battle between True American Patriots and a force intent on elevating deviants, instituting socialism and the hatred of America, babies, and Jesus Christ Our Savior. The RINO label has been used to purge pretty much all of the Republican politicians who don't cater to that mindset.

It's not that it would be impossible to play the Democratic public and align them behind an obvious, shameless demagogue, but the groundwork hasn't been covered that would make it as easy as it was for Trump. I know that Trumpists would jump up and down yelling about 'left-wing lamestream media' and they're not completely off base there, but it's not really the same sort of beast at all.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Joe » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:28 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:20 pm
Joe wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:33 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:32 pm
Joe wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:04 pm
Yeahbut, would this House impeach a Democratic President for what Trump did? :dunno:
I've thought about this, and I have my doubts. It is conceivable though, if a Democratic president had the same history of cuddling up to dictators and contempt for the norms (and laws) that have helped safeguard the republic. Add to this a number of shady characters in the president's orbit going to prison, but specifically in at least one case for being the stooge who carried out illegal actions meant to enhance election prospects at the direction of the future president. The Ukraine caper is by no means Trump's first foray into crooked dealings when it comes to electoral politics.

Once an investigation started (if it ever did) and a Democratic president had engaged in blatant contempt of Congress by refusing outright to allow witnesses to testify and flouting congressional subpoenas to provide documents, I think that the 2nd article would definitely be included.
Yeah, I've chewed on this quite a bit, and the Democrats seem to be, on average, more attached to our norms and the rule of law than the Republicans. They may be more likely to do the right thing with one of their own than the GOP, and if the bill of particulars you've listed were the entirety of the matter, I think they would.

However, if they were getting from a Democratic President what the GOP is getting from Trump: judges, massive fundraising, and a pumped up base, I 'm not so sure.
There is a difference though. The Democratic voting public hasn't been primed through decades of vitriol being dripped into their ears by ranting right wing talk radio, Fox News, and online propaganda like Breitbart to look at the world of domestic politics as a pitched battle between True American Patriots and a force intent on elevating deviants, instituting socialism and the hatred of America, babies, and Jesus Christ Our Savior. The RINO label has been used to purge pretty much all of the Republican politicians who don't cater to that mindset.

It's not that it would be impossible to play the Democratic public and align them behind an obvious, shameless demagogue, but the groundwork hasn't been covered that would make it as easy as it was for Trump. I know that Trumpists would jump up and down yelling about 'left-wing lamestream media' and they're not completely off base there, but it's not really the same sort of beast at all.
That is a difference, but I'm not sure it isn't downed out by the money, as Jim suggests. The Supreme Court has opened the floodgates to the point that big money interests rule, as long as the average voter is brainwashed, distracted, and divided. Given what I see and hear from my fellow citizens, we are well down that path.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Woodbutcher » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:57 pm

The hillbillies like Trump because they can identify with him. He is stupid, lies a lot, fucks sleazy bitches and he speaks at their level. He is the local boy that made it good in their books. He is one of them, they aspire to be like him.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Tero » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:20 am

Woodbutcher wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:57 pm
The hillbillies like Trump because they can identify with him. He is stupid, lies a lot, fucks sleazy bitches and he speaks at their level. He is the local boy that made it good in their books. He is one of them, they aspire to be like him.
Plus he can do stuff. Trump says no climate change. Poof! Climate change is gone.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:54 am

Woodbutcher wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:57 pm
The hillbillies like Trump because they can identify with him. He is stupid, lies a lot, fucks sleazy bitches and he speaks at their level. He is the local boy that made it good in their books. He is one of them, they aspire to be like him.
Which is silly because he epitomises the landed and monied elite that has fucked them over for the last 40 years or more.

It's the post-truth ear I guess: anti-racists are called racist now for calling out racism, anti-facists are called fascists now for standing up against fascism, feminists are sexist now, gay rights activists are hetrophobes, people demonstrating in an explicitly non-violent manner are called intolerant extremists, a threat to national security, or terrorists even, and somehow the gold-plated toilet brigade who've always sought to undermine human rights, employment rights, environmental standards and economic protections for poor and vulnerable members of society are now called 'men of the people'.

Our erstwhile Republican apologist and Trumpian lickspittle always used to bemoan how some ill-defined form of lefty postmodernism had made it intellectually illegal to call a spade a spade these days, that in our post-modern era anything could be whatever you said it was and that this had diluted social values and generated an abject disrespect for the rights of others to hold opinions different from one's own - but Trump embodies the very people who have prosecuted that Gaussian project with remorseless efficiency and called it a 'culture war' to protect 'freedom' or 'truth' or 'our way of life' when all along it's been nothing but identity politics in fancy trouser as articulated by those who thought The Final Solution was a splendid idea.

Trumpist complain about the lame-stream-media are in a biased frenzy over Trump but that's going to look like very small potatoes if Sanders gets anywhere near looking like he could win a presidential election. The Republicans have spent so long telling everybody that things are shit because of that black/brown/foreign/metropolitan guy over there, and calling everyone in sight an-American, far-left, or vile Socialists, that if Bernie's numbers start looking up some people are seriously going to loose their shit. I'd be surprised if Sanders can get anywhere near the steps of the White House without a bullet in his back. What was made plain during the withholding of presidential nominees to the Supreme Court under Obama, during the Mueller investigation, during the Kavanagh hearings, and now with the impeachment process, is that the powerful interests the Republican party represent have control of the farm - and the cattle trucks are coming down the lane folks to take us all to a better place.
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by Tero » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:31 am

"Lose their shit" not loose. The shit could be loose.

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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:36 am

They set their shit loose. It's a shit storm!
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Re: The Trump Impeachment

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:05 am

Joe wrote:
Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:28 pm

That is a difference, but I'm not sure it isn't downed out by the money, as Jim suggests. The Supreme Court has opened the floodgates to the point that big money interests rule, as long as the average voter is brainwashed, distracted, and divided. Given what I see and hear from my fellow citizens, we are well down that path.
A telling example from the last Australian election:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-02-03/ ... d/11923038
The Liberal Party hoovered up $165 million in donations and other revenue in the year leading up to the federal election, surpassing Labor by more than $40 million.

The Coalition also benefited from Clive Palmer's $90 million United Australia Party blitz ahead of the May poll.

The Australian Electoral Commission (AEC) released donations disclosures for 2018-19 on Monday, detailing the financial flows behind the 2019 election.

The documents showed parties recorded more than $430 million in revenue, easily eclipsing the previous single-year record of $279 million in 2013-14.

The last three-year period exceeded the preceding one by close to $150 million.

Behind Labor's $126 million, the Greens received $20 million, the Nationals $16 million, Australian Conservatives $3.6 million and One Nation $3 million.
Counting Labour and Greens together as "progressive", the spending for the conservative side of politics was $284 million to the progressive $146 million, pretty well 2 to 1.
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