What if Vegans are Actually Right?

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It is good for the planet?

Hectic
1
4%
Bacon and Cheese
11
46%
Yes
7
29%
Cheese but not Bacon
2
8%
No
3
13%
 
Total votes: 24

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Sean Hayden
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:27 pm

In The Philosopher and The Wolf Mark Rowlands claims to have made his wolf eat vegetarian meals. It brings up an interesting question about animal rights. If you give animals rights you're going to have to protect them and not just from the human animal, surely?

It makes it very clear that we aren't usually ever really talking about rights, at least not how we understand them anyway. What we actually want is to protect animals from the human animal. That's good, but it also nothing radical or new. It is in fact part of the existing and historical business of food production.

What you really want, is responsible food production and management of resources.

If on the other hand, like Rowlands, you'd like your wolf to be a vegetarian, I'd like to hear your philosophy. :biggrin:
Last edited by Sean Hayden on Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by laklak » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:32 pm

Philosophers fuck up everything, man. Just ask the wolf.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Sean Hayden » Mon Oct 28, 2019 2:35 pm

:lol:
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:55 pm

Oh Brian have taken it hook line and sinker. Poor poor Brian. He fell for the propaganda. There are so many video's Brian for for and against. Ye pays ye money.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:22 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:55 pm
Oh Brian have taken it hook line and sinker. Poor poor Brian. He fell for the propaganda. There are so many video's Brian for for and against. Ye pays ye money.
I'm open to a persuasive argument, so the ball's in your court.

I'm not a vegan. I've been a vegetarian for the last 30 years or so, and I didn't give meat up because I didn't like the taste. It was a political or philosophical decision really. I was a pescetarian for the first 10 years or so, and I was a vegan for about 5 years in the middle, but that was difficult to manage bringing my daughter up - who I didn't 'abuse' by imposing my personal food choices on her: she's mostly vegetarian now for her own reasons - and because... cheese! I was brought up in the countryside and I've been around animals most of my adult life. I think there's excellent economic, health, environmental and animal welfare reasons for reducing the amount of meat one consumes and I salute anyone who makes those kinds of choices for any reason. But in the end it's a personal choice issue. Unlike yourself Scot I don't claim or believe that my personal position is a normative standard to which all others must adhere - I just feel that it's the right thing for me to do. So I haven't taken it hook, line and sinker Scot, but I've read enough around the issues to understand them and to respect the personal decisions of those who make those kinds of choices for themselves.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by JimC » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:42 pm

We try to eat vegetarian about 3 times a week, fish once a week and meat 3 times.

Similar to rainbow, I suppose, although what a difference a single s makes...

3 vegetarians a week...
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:49 pm

I eat veggo when I can't afford or manage to have an animal component to my meal, animal includes cheese.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:20 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 6:22 pm
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 4:55 pm
Oh Brian have taken it hook line and sinker. Poor poor Brian. He fell for the propaganda. There are so many video's Brian for for and against. Ye pays ye money.
I'm open to a persuasive argument, so the ball's in your court.
You'll be waiting a long time.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm

Of course it is personal choice Brian but vegans want to remove that choice. What else would it be? I only eat traceable local seasonable food (only organic if possible). I know where everything comes from and if I wanted to I could go to the farms and see it. Where the vegans beans and peas come from they have not got a clue. The biggest producer of soya is the USA and nuf said. GM foods dont bother them.

Vegans never speak about economics or the environment. You cant grow vegetables on polder land as it is far too poor and it would need tons of (artificial) fertiliser to be able to grow anything but grass. The cattle itself produces the fertiliser for the grass.

The crap that vegans put out as propaganda is pathetic. Kids need calcium to grow and the best and easiest source is milk (goat, cow, sheep or horse). Cheese made from these milks is another great source. All the other so called alternative "milks" are processed with additives added and definitely not organic. Like most of their processed foods additives have to be added otherwise they would have problems.

I am not as I have already said against choice. I eat and prepare plenty of vegetarian meals and enjoy it but I want choice. Not to be controlled by some idiot who keeps on going on about those lovely sweet animals and the cruelty imposed on them. Do they worry how their beans are grown and how many wild animals suffer as a consequence? Slowly and painfully die as a result of aerial spraying? Even how beans are grown in Africa using all the forbidden chemicals which cause health problems to the farmers? They cant otherwise they would starve. Terms like animal husbandry are alien to them. They can only think in black and white but only think in their restricted view of the world.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Oct 29, 2019 12:04 am

"...restricted view of the world"

Oh the irony.. :funny:
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Oct 29, 2019 1:18 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm
Of course it is personal choice Brian but vegans want to remove that choice.
I'll type this slow so you'll understand it. Some vegans, the so-called Vegan™ brigade, are stridently dogmatic about other people's food choices and see it as their job to police the shopping and consumption habits of others - mostly other vegans. Not all vegans are like that. In fact, most are not like that. You're repeating your hasty generalisation - which is a fallacy. A fallacy is an error in thinking btw.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm
Vegans never speak about economics or the environment.
I posted a video which contradicts that blind assertion. If you'd watched it you wouldn't have made that error either.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm
The crap that vegans put out as propaganda is pathetic. Kids need calcium to grow and the best and easiest source is milk (goat, cow, sheep or horse).
Yes, children should have a balanced and nutritious diet, at least until they're old enough to make their own choices. But as I pointed out, while dairy is rich in calcium some cultures traditionally avoid dairy or don't have a dairy component in their diet. Dairy is a good source of calcium, but not the only source. Furthermore, those who are lactose intolerant can have a balanced and healthy non-dairy diet if they take the proper remedial action. So, the lived experience of non-vegans from different cultures who don't consume dairy counters another of your blind assertions. If you'd read my previous post your wouldn't have repeated this error either, either.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm
Cheese made from these milks is another great source. All the other so called alternative "milks" are processed with additives added and definitely not organic. Like most of their processed foods additives have to be added otherwise they would have problems.
Your anglo-saxon mindset is blocking you from seeing the naturalistic fallacy your making here. It's actually you who is representing the idea of a 'proper' diet an holding it up as a normative standard to which all others should adhere. Who's being the intolerant, dogmatic iconoclast now eh?
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm
I am not as I have already said against choice. I eat and prepare plenty of vegetarian meals and enjoy it but I want choice. Not to be controlled by some idiot who keeps on going on about those lovely sweet animals and the cruelty imposed on them.
And I bet some of your friends are black or gay as well.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm
Do they worry how their beans are grown and how many wild animals suffer as a consequence? Slowly and painfully die as a result of aerial spraying? Even how beans are grown in Africa using all the forbidden chemicals which cause health problems to the farmers? They cant otherwise they would starve. Terms like animal husbandry are alien to them. They can only think in black and white but only think in their restricted view of the world.
Putting aside the nonsense about the concept of animal husbandry being alien to Africans :roll: I've dealt with that already - you simply chose to ignore it and repeat yourself. I've noticed that you tend to repeat yourself when you're under stress.

Now the remaining question is why do you continue to misrepresent vegans given that the only thing you've brought to support your assertions is your opinion, which you've repeated after ignoring everything I've posted that runs counter to that. Again, I think your reason can only be to 'other' vegans - you define vegans as malign, intolerant, controlling asshats because by defining them that way you define yourself as better than them. You're basically involved in doing to vegans exactly what you claim vegans are doing to you. The irony of that is, of course, lost on you.

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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by rainbow » Tue Oct 29, 2019 6:29 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:49 pm
Even how beans are grown in Africa using all the forbidden chemicals which cause health problems to the farmers?
No, we use the ground up bones of missionaries as fertilizer.
:ask: How is that forbidden? :smug:
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:47 am

A nice bit of skating Brian but we can keep going like this till the cows come home. Basing an argument on one very biased video that addressed nothing. Where did I state about Africans and animal husbandry. You are up to your old tricks when you lose the argument you misrepresent and come out with personal insults. My Anglo-Saxon mindset? :lol:. Referring to "stress". I have never done that but that is the consequence of your narrow minded thinking.
you wrote:And I bet some of your friends are black or gay as well.
Nice one. A bit low but is expected. Just why? Who is ignoring who?

Health effects of vegan diets
ABSTRACT

Recently, vegetarian diets have experienced an increase in popularity. A vegetarian diet is associated with many health benefits because of its higher content of fiber, folic acid, vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium, and many phytochemicals and a fat content that is more unsaturated. Compared with other vegetarian diets, vegan diets tend to contain less saturated fat and cholesterol and more dietary fiber. Vegans tend to be thinner, have lower serum cholesterol, and lower blood pressure, reducing their risk of heart disease. However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.
If it was a natural diet these concerns would not arise.

A further conclusion:
Further research is needed to explore the relation between consuming plant-based diets and risk of cancer because there are many unanswered questions about how diet and cancer are connected. To date, epidemiologic studies have not provided convincing evidence that a vegan diet provides significant protection against cancer. Although plant foods contain many chemopreventive factors, most of the research data comes from cellular biochemical studies
As long as the calcium and vitamin D intake of vegans is adequate, their bone health is probably not an issue because their diet contains an ample supply of other protective factors for bone health. However, more studies are needed to provide more definitive data on the bone health of vegans
Taking pills. Great.
DIETARY RECOMMENDATIONS FOR OPTIMAL VEGAN DIETS

1) To avoid B-12 deficiency, vegans should regularly consume vitamin B-12–fortified foods, such as fortified soy and rice beverages, certain breakfast cereals and meat analogs, and B-12–fortified nutritional yeast, or take a daily vitamin B-12 supplement. Fermented soy products, leafy vegetables, and seaweed cannot be considered a reliable source of active vitamin B-12. No unfortified plant food contains any significant amount of active vitamin B-12.

2) To ensure adequate calcium in the diet, calcium-fortified plant foods should be regularly consumed in addition to consuming the traditional calcium sources for a vegan (green leafy vegetables, tofu, tahini). The calcium-fortified foods include ready-to-eat cereals, calcium-fortified soy and rice beverages, calcium-fortified orange and apple juices, and other beverages. The bioavailability of the calcium carbonate in the soy beverages and the calcium citrate malate in apple or orange juice is similar to that of the calcium in milk (78, 79). Tricalcium phosphate–fortified soy milk was shown to have a slightly lower calcium bioavailability than the calcium in cow milk (78).

3) To ensure an adequate vitamin D status, especially during the winter, vegans must regularly consume vitamin D–fortified foods such as soy milk, rice milk, orange juice, breakfast cereals, and margarines that are fortified with vitamin D. Where fortified foods are unavailable, a daily supplement of 5–10 μg vitamin D would be necessary. The supplement would be highly desirable for elderly vegans.

4) A vegan should regularly consume plant foods naturally rich in the n-3 fatty acid ALA, such as ground flaxseed, walnuts, canola oil, soy products, and hemp seed–based beverages. In addition, it is recommended that vegans consume foods that are fortified with the long-chain n-3 fatty acid DHA, such as some soy milks and cereal bars. Those with increased requirements of long-chain n-3 fatty acids, such as pregnant and lactating women, would benefit from using DHA-rich microalgae supplements.

5) Because of the high phytate content of a typical vegan diet, it is important that a vegan consume foods that are rich in zinc, such as whole grains, legumes, and soy products, to provide a sufficient zinc intake. Benefit could also be obtained by vegans consuming fortified ready-to-eat cereals and other zinc-fortified foods.
All artificial. A useless diet in other words and certainly not natural. I have not mentioned the ethics of vegans.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Oct 29, 2019 7:57 am

Another view of an ex-vegan:

Eight Vegan Diet Dangers (One Is Irreversible)
Before you think about going vegan, you might want to learn about eight diet dangers and health risks that can result from this extreme diet plan.
Have you ever wondered if a vegan diet would help you manage your weight and resolve any nagging health problems? That’s the promise that is often made around this trend. I’m here to dispel the myth that veganism is the healthiest diet and works for everyone.


My health problems in the past included:

PCOS (polycystic ovarian syndrome)
Hashimoto’s thyroiditis
inflammatory bowel syndrome (IBS)
anxiety
migraines
panic attacks, and
thyroid cancer
A healthy diet? In your dreams. No ethics yet.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Oct 29, 2019 8:00 am

The dangers:

Image

Healthy? Never mind the ethics.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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