War Of Words

[Beelzebub2]

We have the best fucking president ever!! (It's the second one actually ).

President in war of words

President Mesić Critices Church
13 August 2009 | 12:46 | Source: FoNet
ZAGREB -- Croatian President Stjepan Mesić says the Catholic Church in that country enjoys a privileged position.
He reminded that the Church receives EUR 37mn annually from the state budget, "builds monumental edifices, and then proceeds to rent the property".

Mesić's criticism comes amid his strained relations with religious officials, after last week's editorial in the Catholic weekly Glas Koncila, which slammed the president as "arch-traitor". The Church failed to distance itself from the editorial.

Mesić asked for an end to the practice of displaying religious symbols in army barracks, police buildings, municipalities and other public institutions.

He was also quoted as saying that the Church should be "more engaged in this, clearly saying that Croatia is a secular state".

Mesić's remarks were published after the weekly's initial editorial.

Now, in a new article headlined "What kind of president we need", Glas Koncila (major religious magazine) editor Ivan Miklenić writes that "the next Croatian president should be a healthy and psychologically well-balanced person, capable of gathering around him untainted, competent associates, who also come from the silent Croatian majority."

Implying that Mesić is not that person, Miklenić goes on to ask the faithful to "pray for exactly such a president" during a forthcoming religious holiday .

What a marvellous opportunity to use this smiley:

Some more here and here.

[Beelzebub2]

Also it seems that 37 million euros comes annually from the state budget to support various and endless Church needs. Every noun and a priest surely need to have a brand new Mercedes and a newest cell phone, eh? In all my life (and I'm very old of course) I have seen maybe three slim priests/nouns combined.

Croatian President Criticises Church
President Stjepan Mesic has hit out at the role of the Catholic Church in Croatia, claiming that it benefits from its privileged role in society, broadcaster B92 reports.

From B92 and the Croatian Times

Mesic said the Church receives 37 million euros annually from the state budget, "builds monumental edifices, and then proceeds to rent [out] the property".

Last week, an editorial in Catholic weekly Glas Koncila hit out at the president, calling him an "arch-traitor". The Croatian Church hierarchy failed to distance itself from the editorial, B92 notes.

Arguing that Croatia is a secular state, Mesic has requested the removal of all religious symbols from police and army facilities and from municipal and other public buildings.

B92 reports that Glas Koncila editor Ivan Miklenic has written a new piece in which he argues that "the next Croatian president should be a healthy and psychologically well-balanced person, capable of gathering around him untainted, competent associates, who also come from the silent Croatian majority".

Croatia will hold fresh presidential elections next January. Ivo Josipovic, from the Social Democrat Party, is the frontrunner in a recent poll.

The Croatian Times reports that Mesic, in an interview on Croatian national radio, said he did not want to argue with the Church, but that a weekly published by the capital's archdiocese should not be calling the president a traitor.

[BrettA]

Wow! Is this - "He reminded that the Church receives EUR 37mn annually from the state budget, "builds monumental edifices, and then proceeds to rent the property" - in any way the fucking norm??? Do most countries actually subsidize this shit? I knew that they didn't pay taxes often, but "receives" seems to go way beyond that! Anyone know? Anyone know about Canada or other Commonwealth countries, especially (bias)?


Thanks fer the post!

[Beelzebub2]

You're welcome!

What is truly saddening is that while churches are mushrooming across the country (which has been the norm for the last 20 years ever since the fall of communism) schools, hospitals, etc are being neglected. There is one school which hasn't changed a bit since my father went in it approximately 45 years ago, but a brand new church stands near-by with all accompanying edifices. The priest that is in charge is probably one the fattest men I've ever seen, nonetheless every year at the time of Christmas holidays they come to "bless" the houses - read "collect the money" that many gullible people still give them, poor souls.

[BrettA]

You're welcome! ... What is truly saddening...

Yeah, that really is sad - I'm not yet sure how I'll even be able determine this, for Canada.

... The priest that is in charge is probably one the fattest man i've ever seen...

Well, let's not go there, OK?

[Beelzebub2]

You're welcome! ... What is truly saddening...

Yeah, that really is sad - I'm not yet sure how I'll even be able determine this, for Canada.

We're just simply too close to Vatican - they were actually the first "country" to confirm Croatian independence in 1991. Tomorrow is that crappy Catholic holiday and I heard on the news that bishop asked the religious bunch not to allow president Mesić to spoil it for them. As if there's anything that isn't spoiled in Church.

As far as Canada is concerned it seems that there are many defoliations, all of them important, though Catholic Church does seem to be the most prominent, closely followed by United Church of Canada.

This can be found on the web:

Conclusion

In closing, I salute the stated goals of your delegation. You have a good opportunity to learn much about Canadians from this visit, including the strong faith practices of many Canadians of origin in China. One Chinese Baptist church in Scarborough, a suburb of Toronto, evidently has a membership of 14,000 adults and an annual budget of $2.5 million.

--------------

1*. My own congregation in West Ottawa illustrates this point and the transparency of our religious communities. The tax deduction encourages our 175 members to donate about $142,000 yearly to our local church, which sends $20,500 to our national church, which receives about $9 million yearly from all its local churches. That total is spent in areas which include inner city, First Nations and refugee ministries; 43 overseas personnel in 20 countries and international partnerships on aid with churches around the world. Thousands of other local churches, synagogues, mosques, Gurdwaras, pagodas, and temples across Canada no doubt do likewise with their own national bodies.

It seems that each congregation is (mostly) sustained by its members.

Taken from Church-State Relations in Canada and JIE GUI ('connecting of rails')

Some more links here, here.

However I also found this - more about the Church-state relationship in Canada:

While Canadians do sing, "God keep our land," and Harper has introduced "God bless Canada," Canada has comparatively less God in the public square. This despite the fact, or because of it, that we never did separate church and state.

The 1867 BNA act protected both Catholics and Protestants. Ontario still funds Catholic schools.

Last year, the Quebec commission on reasonable accommodation restated the principle: "The right to religion includes the right to display it."

Charles Taylor and Gerard Bouchard also noted that, regardless of grand proclamations, state and church do mix in secular societies.

France, which thinks of itself as strictly secular, isn't. It funds religious schools, churches and chaplaincy services. It observes more Catholic holidays than Quebec. Its only official ceremony for the funerals of presidents is a mass at Notre-Dame Cathedral.

Germany funds the Catholic and Protestant churches to the tune of 20 billion Euros a year.

The British monarch remains the head of the Church of England.

In the happy middle ground of Canada, state and religion coexist. Historic religious compromises are honoured. But the trend is toward making the state as neutral as possible – as quietly as possible.

Full article: Counting the blessings of Canada amid crises

... The priest that is in charge is probably one the fattest man i've ever seen...

Well, let's not go there, OK?

Teehee.

[klr]

...

Now, in a new article headlined "What kind of president we need", Glas Koncila (major religious magazine) editor Ivan Miklenić writes that "the next Croatian president should be a healthy and psychologically well-balanced person, capable of gathering around him untainted, competent associates, who also come from the silent Croatian majority."

If any member of the Irish clergy said that, he would be publicly ridiculed (or worse), assuming anyone even took any notice of him. I know we have some "Catholic" publications, but I don't think too many people pay any attention to those either.

[Beelzebub2]

These are Balkans.

You can't expect much sense or intelligence from the people stupefied with religious crap.

My mother doesn't believe in black holes, my grandmother is convinced that the doomsday is near, half of the (older) relatives haven't even heard of dinosaurs or evolution, some of my friends are turning into religious fanatics etc etc.

Communism was crap but it was better than this.

[klr]

These are Balkans.

You can't expect much sense or intelligence from the people stupefied with religious crap.

My mother doesn't believe in black holes, my grandmother is convinced that the doomsday is near, half of the (older) relatives haven't even heard of dinosaurs or evolution, some of my friends are turning into religious fanatics etc etc.

Communism was crap but it was better than this.

Your grandmother lived through the Second World War, did she not? Wasn't that bad enough for her?

[owtth]

Wow! Is this - "He reminded that the Church receives EUR 37mn annually from the state budget, "builds monumental edifices, and then proceeds to rent the property" - in any way the fucking norm??? Do most countries actually subsidize this shit? I knew that they didn't pay taxes often, but "receives" seems to go way beyond that! Anyone know? Anyone know about Canada or other Commonwealth countries, especially (bias)?


Thanks fer the post!

Here in Spain up until recently (5 or 6 years I think) a percentage of the income tax for every individual was automatically given to the catholic church unless you nominated another recipient (I cannot recall if the recipient had to be religious in nature) Naturally the Vatican has not approved of many subsequent actions of the government since then and has been vociferous in it's objections to any policy that might treat homosexuals as humans or give women the choice of whether or not to drop a sprog . It's almost as if the whole thing was only about fucking money and power. They seemed to get on quite well with Franco though.

[Beelzebub2]

These are Balkans.

You can't expect much sense or intelligence from the people stupefied with religious crap.

My mother doesn't believe in black holes, my grandmother is convinced that the doomsday is near, half of the (older) relatives haven't even heard of dinosaurs or evolution, some of my friends are turning into religious fanatics etc etc.

Communism was crap but it was better than this.

Your grandmother lived through the Second World War, did she not? Wasn't that bad enough for her?

She's 90 years old. For her doomsday approaches every Wednesday.

[owtth]

By the by, is your president more of a hands on, day to day figure like in Spain, or is it a protector of the constitution role like in Ireland?

[Beelzebub2]

Basically he shares the power with the Prime Minister - unlike the former president Tuđman who was a true autocrat. With his death more equal distribution of power was accomplished.

President's main role is leading the armed forces and Croatian diplomacy together with the Government, in addition to a number of procedural duties of his eminent public office.

The main powers of the president are:

* represents and stands for the Republic of Croatia at home and abroad
* takes care of regular and harmonized functioning and stability of the state government
* responsible for the defense of the independence and territorial integrity of the Republic of Croatia
* calls elections for the Croatian Parliament and convene their first session
* call referendum in accordance with the Constitution
* may announce on the proposal of the Government and the Chairman of the Government a referendum on proposed changes to the Constitution or any other matters for which holds that it is important for the independence, uniqueness and existence of the Republic of Croatia
* confide the mandate to form the Government to the person who, upon the distribution of the seats in the Croatian Parliament and consultations held, enjoys confidence of the majority of its members
* promulgates laws
* grants pardons and confers decorations and other awards
* performing other tasks in accordance with the Constitution

If interested, see more here.

[owtth]

Basically he shares the power with the Prime Minister - unlike the former president Tuđman who was a true autocrat. With his death more equal distribution of power was accomplished.

President's main role is leading the armed forces and Croatian diplomacy together with the Government, in addition to a number of procedural duties of his eminent public office.

The main powers of the president are:

* represents and stands for the Republic of Croatia at home and abroad
* takes care of regular and harmonized functioning and stability of the state government
* responsible for the defense of the independence and territorial integrity of the Republic of Croatia
* calls elections for the Croatian Parliament and convene their first session
* call referendum in accordance with the Constitution
* may announce on the proposal of the Government and the Chairman of the Government a referendum on proposed changes to the Constitution or any other matters for which holds that it is important for the independence, uniqueness and existence of the Republic of Croatia
* confide the mandate to form the Government to the person who, upon the distribution of the seats in the Croatian Parliament and consultations held, enjoys confidence of the majority of its members
* promulgates laws
* grants pardons and confers decorations and other awards
* performing other tasks in accordance with the Constitution

If interested, see more here.

From your description (I'm too lazy to go into more depth at this hour) It seems very similar to the Irish president except that traditionally Irish presidents seem to be much more low profile. Having said that I am quite pleased with the current and former Irish presidents, neither of whom seemed to give a fuck about religion.


EDIT: For the most obvious errors

[Beelzebub2]

I just hope that some religious freak won't be the next in the president chair - this is his second and last mandate.