Yet more problematic stuff

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri May 03, 2019 1:39 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 1:27 pm
That should be...

17% Yes.
Depends if it's western arabic, eastern arabic, hindu-arabic, persian-arabic or urdu..... It's a little more complicated than the reference to western numbers as "Arabic" numerals.

For example, eastern arabic numerals, used in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan and Palestine 1-10, are as follows:
٩ ٨ ٧ ٦ ٥ ٤ ٣ ٢ ١ ٠
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Fri May 03, 2019 3:37 pm

Which is more problematic in a government--incompetent intentional cruelty, or efficient and orderly intentional cruelty?

'Emails show Trump admin had "no way to link" separated migrant children to parents'
On the same day the Trump administration said it would reunite thousands of migrant families it had separated at the border with the help of a "central database," an official was admitting privately the government only had enough information to reconnect 60 parents with their kids, according to emails obtained by NBC News.

"[I]n short, no, we do not have any linkages from parents to [children], save for a handful," a Health and Human Services official told a top official at Immigration and Customs Enforcement on June 23, 2018. "We have a list of parent alien numbers but no way to link them to children."

In the absence of an effective database, the emails show, officials then began scrambling to fill out a simple spreadsheet with data in hopes of reuniting as many as families as they could.

The gaps in the system for tracking separations would result in a months-long effort to reunite nearly 3,000 families separated under the administration's "zero tolerance" policy. Officials had to review all the relevant records manually, a process that continues.

Nearly a year later, as many as 55 children separated last year under zero tolerance are still in Health and Human Services (HHS) custody at shelters around the country. The shortage of data has also complicated efforts to find many other children, potentially thousands, separated prior to zero tolerance. The administration's lawyers have said in court filings that reunification could take years.

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri May 03, 2019 4:04 pm

As we now know, it's actually the parents fault for using children to game the system. :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri May 03, 2019 5:45 pm

Wait, something doesn't sound right.

The children were separated out because the parents were supposed to be held in custody, and the children couldn't be held with them. The children would then be put in a non-detention center care. So, they would know where the kids are supposed to be. Also, the parents were in custody. if the parents were released, wouldn't they be reunited with the kids at that time? If the parents were not released, wouldn't they still be in custody?

The article is, naturally, short on detail, but it does say that "as many as" 55 kids remain in HHS custody. So, that's the remainder out of what the article says is about 3,000. And, they are in HHS custody. So, the DHS had "no way to link families" -- but, 98.2% of children have been reunited with their families, despite there being "no way" to do so.
HHS referred NBC News to a June 26, 2018 quote from Secretary Alex Azar: "There is no reason why any parent would not know where their child is located. I've sat on the ORR portal with just basic keystrokes, within seconds could find any child in our care for any parent."

In a statement, HHS spokesperson Evelyn Stauffer said, "HHS knows where each and every unaccompanied child in HHS custody is at any given time, and that was true during the summer of 2018. What Secretary Azar said was true and is still true today."
This is the ORR Portal referred to there -- https://ucportal.acf.hhs.gov/

I find it interesting that the article does not refer to anyone in particular - there are 55 left, at most, but there isn't a single parent in this article who is quoted or interviewed as not being able to get their child back or locate their child. I wonder why that is?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri May 03, 2019 5:59 pm

Yeah, it's definitely a conspiracy. :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri May 03, 2019 5:59 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 4:04 pm
As we now know, it's actually the parents fault for using children to game the system. :tea:
Do you think any persons illegally entering without inspection brought minors with them who were or were not their biological children? Would you estimate the number of persons who would do that to be 0, or perhaps slightly above 0?

In October, 2016, to September 2017, there were 45 cases confirmed where illegal immigrants trafficked kids across the border to pose as families. From October, 2017 to September 2018, that number was 191.

There are 55 kids left in custody, according to the NBC News article posted above, and they cite no examples of parents of released illegal immigrants to have their kids returned to them. No examples given. I would think it would be quite a newsworthy thing, if someone is writing an article about separated parents and kids, to have a parent who has been released pending resolution of an asylum claim or somehow approved to stay here, screaming about their kids not being returned to them.

If the parent was released, then it wouldn't be a dangerous thing to be in public, having sympathetic news reporters quote you in tears waiting for your child, would it? If you weren't justifiably released, then you'd still be in custody - and you can't be reunited. If you were released, then the government already got information from you as to how to contact you, so your asylum or other claim could be processed, right? An asylum seeker isn't hiding, right? Because they have to go to a hearing to get asylum - if they are hiding, then they really don't want asylum, do they? Cuz, they won't make it to their hearing.

So, this is really odd - for an article to say that there was "no way" to reunite families. when the same article says only "as many as" 55 kids remain un-reunited. Out of 3,000. That's 98.2% reunited. 55 is a small number - perhaps those parents are still in custody, or if released, haven't sought to be reunited, or weren't the parents of the child to begin with.... given that there are almost 200 a year of that ilk (per data for FY 2017), it doesn't seem outlandish to suggest that 55 of them or at least a good chunk of that 55 were, in fact, used in the way you describe.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Forty Two » Fri May 03, 2019 6:12 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:59 pm
Yeah, it's definitely a conspiracy. :tea:
In point of fact, I'm debunking the conspiracy theory, not advancing it.

The article itself says we're talking about 55 kids, out of 3,000. A google search reveals that in FY 2017, 191 kids were brought in by persons other than their parents (and apprehended). That would mean if they were separated, that they would not actually be parents of the separated kids.

And, the article does try to claim that there was "no way" to link the parents and the kids, yet the article says nothing about how 98.2% of kids who were held by HHS under the separation policy were actually linked and reunited.

What is this article really reporting? We found internal emails where individual employees responded to inquiries saying they could not easily put together a spreadsheet showing the names and addresses of 3,000 illegal immigrants in one spreadsheet! There was "no way to link them!" OMG! We don't know where any of them are!!!! Hair on fire!

But, wait.... 98.2% of the kids were linked and returned to their parents, and HHS indicated (without rebuttal in the article) that the ORR portal shows exactly where the kids are with a few keystrokes. And, we have 55 remaining, and the article presents zero examples of a parent of an illegal immigrant who is not in custody seeking to find his or her child.....

But we're supposed to come away from this thinking that kids were just lost and there was no way to find their parents.

Doesn't that sound ridiculous? I mean - if they release the fucking illegal immigrant parent, don't they have to have a way to contact the person to send a notice when the immigration hearing is going to be? That's in the record. And, the kids are held by HHS, and so, of course there is a record there.

All this hyperbole in the article is really about the fact that there were two or three different records kept by different agencies - HHS kept track of the kids and DHS (immigration) kept track of the parents (who are easily found when in custody) and then whose contact information is in the system when they leave custody if released into GenPop.

Are you sure that the fact that 55 kids out of 3,000 haven't been physically returned is because HHS and DHS have no information on where the kids and the parents are?
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Seabass » Fri May 03, 2019 7:59 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 1:30 pm
Seabass wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 2:04 am
Forty Two wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:58 pm
Tucker Carlson isn't racist
:read:
Ex-White Nationalist Says Tucker Carlson Hits Far-Right Messaging “Better Than They Have”

By family history and his own early bona fides, Derek Black was slated to have a successful career in white nationalism, as far as those things go. Black’s father, Don, is the founder of the oldest neo-Nazi website, the now-shuttered Stormfront; and was a grand wizard in the KKK; a member of the American Nazi Party; and was convicted in 1981 for attempting to overthrow the government of the Caribbean island of Dominica, part of a long dream for white nationalists to establish their own government. Derek Black’s mother, Chloe, was once married to David Duke.

As a child, Black, gifted as a coder, created a version of Stormfront for kids, and as a young man, hosted a talk show on the website. In 2008, as a 19-year-old, Black won a seat on the Palm Beach County Republican Executive Committee, although he was ultimately denied the position after the party learned of his background. According to reporter Eli Saslow, who wrote the book Rising Out of Hatred about Black, the young white nationalist had a serious influence on his father:

“One of Derek’s most lasting and damaging impacts on this white nationalist movement is that he convinced his father to scrub Stormfront of all racial slurs, all Nazi insignia … Derek thought the way [they were] going to reach more people is, instead of of using this kind of language, [they] need to play to this false, but unfortunately, very widely spread sense of white grievance that still exists in big parts of this country.”

But at the age of 24, Black disavowed white nationalism, writing in a letter to the Southern Poverty Law Center that he had abandoned the movement, citing experiences in college and extended conversations with Jewish friends as factors that led him from his former beliefs: “I acknowledge that things I have said as well as my actions have been harmful to people of color, people of Jewish descent, activists striving for opportunity and fairness for all, and others affected.”

All this to say, Black knows a thing or two about the rhetoric and long-term planning of the white-nationalist movement in America. And in a segment on The Van Jones Show this weekend, Black claimed that Fox News host Tucker Carlson is doing a better job at promoting whitenationalist rhetoric than SPLC–bona fide white nationalists are:

“It’s really, really alarming that my family watches Tucker Carlson show once and then watches it on the replay because they feel that he is making the white nationalist talking points better than they have and they’re trying to get some tips on how to advance it.”


http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/04/ ... rlson.html
LOL, you think that says Tucker Carlson is a racist? How about quoting Tucker Carlson saying something racist? I'm more than willing to call him a racist if he says or does something racist. However, I am not going to hold people to what a former white Nationalist says is the reason his family watches Tucker Carlson.

"The fundamental belief that drove my dad, drove my parents and my family, over decades, was that race was the defining feature of humanity ." Derek Black.

"... people should never be punished or rewarded on the basis of their skin color. Unlike the Left, we don't believe your DNA is the most important thing about you. Each of us is an individual, not a faceless member of a herd. We abhor defining people by race." - Tucker Carlson.
:funny: :funny: :funny:

Well then, you should explain to all the white supremacists who love Tucker Carlson that they've got him all wrong. I'm sure they'll all let out a sigh of disappointment and move on to someone else once you've set them straight.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by JimC » Fri May 03, 2019 10:26 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:11 am
So pristine New Zealand is far from that but that is true about most things in the country.

'Decades of denial': major report finds New Zealand's environment is in serious trouble
Nation known for its natural beauty is under pressure with extinctions, polluted rivers and blighted lakes

A report on the state of New Zealand’s environment has painted a bleak picture of catastrophic biodiversity loss, polluted waterways and the destructive rise of the dairy industry and urban sprawl.

Environment Aotearoa is the first major environmental report in four years, and was compiled using data from Statistics New Zealand and the environment ministry.

It presents a sobering summary of a country that is starkly different from the pristine landscape promoted in the “Pure New Zealand” marketing campaign that lures millions of tourists every year.

It found New Zealand is now considered one of the most invaded countries in the world, with 75 animal and plant species having gone extinct since human settlement. The once-vibrant bird life has fared particularly badly, with 90% of seabirds and 80% of shorebirds threatened with or at risk of extinction.

During her election campaign, the prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, pledged to make the country’s rivers and lakes swimmable again for the next generation.

That could prove challenging, with the report finding that groundwater failed standards at 59% of wells owing to the presence of E coli, and at 13% of the wells owing to nitrates. Some 57% of monitored lakes registered poor water quality, and 76% of native freshwater fish are at risk of or threatened with extinction. A third of freshwater insects are also in danger of extinction.
The great New Zealand illusion shattered.
It is well known in NZ environmental circles. When my son David worked there in environmental monitoring in the South Island, the main problem was discharge from dairy farms into waterways, but they were making some progress in reducing the levels.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Fri May 03, 2019 10:43 pm

It's well known in most circles. Not sure what illusion Dutchy is going on about.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sat May 04, 2019 5:30 am

It is not well known outside NZ environmental circles where NZ always tries to present itself as so clean and pristine.
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat May 04, 2019 10:28 am


Forty Two wrote:...

Doesn't that sound ridiculous?
Yep.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by BarnettNewman » Sat May 04, 2019 2:04 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 1:30 pm

LOL, you think that says Tucker Carlson is a racist? How about quoting Tucker Carlson saying something racist? I'm more than willing to call him a racist if he says or does something racist.
Quote? How about his own words.


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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sat May 04, 2019 2:53 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Fri May 03, 2019 5:45 pm
Wait, something doesn't sound right.

[snipped irrelevant quibbling]
Your self-gratifying critique of the article doesn't detract from the fact that the administration instituted a policy of intentional cruelty to the families of asylum seekers, traumatizing innocent children with the idea of deterring people from finding refuge in the US who were desperate to escape deadly violence in their home countries. That it instituted this policy without proper arrangements for how to reunify the families it had separated, and had to cobble together something on the fly when the policy was stopped due to intense backlash from the US public. You assiduously ignore a couple of relevant sentences: 'The shortage of data has also complicated efforts to find many other children, potentially thousands, separated prior to zero tolerance. The administration's lawyers have said in court filings that reunification could take years.'

The statement that there was 'no way to link [parents] to their children' is not press hyperbole, it's taken from an email from one government official to another. You do your best to downplay the incompetence with which the administration went about its cruel and unnecessary policy of traumatizing children, but the article relates damning facts.

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Re: Yet more problematic stuff

Post by Hermit » Sat May 04, 2019 2:55 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sat May 04, 2019 5:30 am
It is not well known outside NZ environmental circles where NZ always tries to present itself as so clean and pristine.
Whenever Trump says. "Not many people know that" it means "I didn't know that"... ;)
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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