Hard Brexit or Hard Brexit

[Scot Dutchy]

Depends how you define democracy. I hold a very simple definition; one man one vote and all votes are equal and before you say it the Dutch system does meet those criteria. Introduce any geographic restrictions and it will fail.

[Svartalf]

and there's democratic problems in countries, like france, that launch referenda only to do the reverse of their result, like we did at least one, when we voted against a certain style of European "constitution", only to have the treaty of Lisbon shoved down our collective throat... and I'm sure I heard other instances not too far ago (say, within 6 months), but this is the only one I can remember at the present time, because it rankled so much when I saw it happen.

[Rum]

Depends how you define democracy. I hold a very simple definition; one man one vote and all votes are equal and before you say it the Dutch system does meet those criteria. Introduce any geographic restrictions and it will fail.

Unless of course there are geographical (I.e. local) issues, which the population of a given area feel are ignored because of the larger picture. Any way you look at it democracy is a matter of compromise. It is in the nature of a democratic system, after all, that the losers put up with the policies of the winners until they get a chance to vote next time.

[laklak]

Wasn't the Brexit referendum one man / one vote, without geographic restrictions? This is precisely why universal democracy doesn't work, the majority are too ignorant and/or stupid to make a rational decision. The more buffers you put between the Will of the People and the actual coalface the better, assuming you have to give the monkeys an illusion of control in the first place.

[Svartalf]

except when canny powermongers learn how to abuse the buffered system to their own advantage... that's how you got clowns like reagan, bush the younger, twice, and frump.

[Rum]

Wasn't the Brexit referendum one man / one vote, without geographic restrictions? This is precisely why universal democracy doesn't work, the majority are too ignorant and/or stupid to make a rational decision. The more buffers you put between the Will of the People and the actual coalface the better, assuming you have to give the monkeys an illusion of control in the first place.

Yes, it was one vote per person irrespective of location. Our government works similarly to yours In electing a person for a region and sending them to the national capital to represent them. One down side to this of course is that you can get a majority of one party actually representing less than a majority of the people. Add in non voters and I’m not sure quite how representive the system ever is. Most permutations have their advantages and downsides (except the Dutch one of course).

And while the idealist in me would like to dismiss your cynicism, I fancy you have a point about making sure the dullards don’t have too much influence.

[Scot Dutchy]

Depends how you define democracy. I hold a very simple definition; one man one vote and all votes are equal and before you say it the Dutch system does meet those criteria. Introduce any geographic restrictions and it will fail.

Unless of course there are geographical (I.e. local) issues, which the population of a given area feel are ignored because of the larger picture. Any way you look at it democracy is a matter of compromise. It is in the nature of a democratic system, after all, that the losers put up with the policies of the winners until they get a chance to vote next time.

We dont compromise in any way. There is a direct correlation between votes won and number of seats gained. Nobody wins outright. All they have is a greater say in government policies. It is all consensus.

[Rum]

I’m sure that simply isn’t possible in all cases. Consensus requires give and take after all. Those that give, lose a bit, those that take get a bit. Your wonderful country may be a workers’ paradise but there are still competing interests.

[PsychoSerenity]

One crucial aspect of an effective democracy is that the voters need to be educated and well informed. Obviously it's still problematic, because who decides what education and information is provided? But one thing I am certain of is that the public will not be well informed when the vast majority of the media is run and owned by tax-avoiding millionaire right-wing bastards.

[Brian Peacock]

But without The Sun, The Telegraph, The Financial Time, and The Daily Mail etc how would people know what to be afraid of and/or resent? Why, without their good works the ordinary man and woman in the street might start doubting whether those millionaires in charge of everything actually have our best interests at heart.

[Scot Dutchy]

I’m sure that simply isn’t possible in all cases. Consensus requires give and take after all. Those that give, lose a bit, those that take get a bit. Your wonderful country may be a workers’ paradise but there are still competing interests.

Consensus also requires the demands to be reasonable and not impossible. Of course it is never 100% but it achieves far more than the Anglo-Saxon adversarial system. One of the great spin offs of a consensus society is that people feel they have a say which in turn creates a happier workforce. It is not perfect but up till now it seems the best approach as witnessed in other Northern European Social Democracies.
Which competing interests are you thinking of?

[rainbow]

But without The Sun, The Telegraph, The Financial Time, and The Daily Mail etc how would people know what to be afraid of and/or resent? Why, without their good works the ordinary man and woman in the street might start doubting whether those millionaires in charge of everything actually have our best interests at heart.

You ignore the Old Man's Prostate Effect.


Also known as the Trickle Down Principle
https://www.thebalance.com/trickle-down ... rk-3305572

[Brian Peacock]

You mean The Trickle Up Effect surely?

[rainbow]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... ndum-calls

Corbyn can't make up his mind.

[Scot Dutchy]

Corbyn could never make up his mind. The shop steward needs his committee to decide but the sub committees keep on interfering.