WTF is going on in France Svarty?

[Forty Two]

Which ones are those and why would they attack?

I leave it to you to study some history. Should you decide to do so, you will discover an all too common pattern, namely that when nations cannot defend their autonomy from neighbouring nations that are more powerful, they lose it.

Europe is a very different place now. There is little motive to invade and hold territory, as the economies are not longer based on agriculture, mining and manufacture - so land is not as important.
Wars are now faught over ideology not territory, and the Europeans have a common middle-class value system. What would there be to fight for?

Exactly rainbow. The Cold War mentality is difficult to move sometimes. What is the purpose of NATO? Rationally it has none.

Unless Trump says it has none, and then that position "worries" the bigger brains.... https://www.vox.com/world/2018/7/10/174 ... any-speech

The second reason [NATO is necessary] is that a Europe in which the US is not engaged is a Europe that is likely to be unstable. That’s as true today as it was in 1949. The investment that the US has made to ensure that Europe is peaceful remains a much cheaper investment than if we allowed it to descend into war, in which case we’d inevitably get dragged into the conflict.

So, it's really because the havoc you fucking incompetents over there across the pond would cause if we didn't have a leash on you is far more costly and dangerous than to pay for your food, bedding, and leash, and fence your yard for you. Got it, Dutch-boy? And, that's a left wing source talking about the issue, explaining why your agreement with Donald Trump is way off base.

NATO does have a free-rider problem that is becoming less of a problem but is still there. For a whole host of historical reasons, Europeans invest less in defense than the US, in part because we have a global security role and the US is seen as a country that is committed to the defense of Europe.

In other words, you folks choose not to spend your fair share on your own defense, because the US is supplying it for you. Free-riders.

Mind you, when it comes to the Nato allies, Obama is right. Sheltering under the big American umbrella since 1945, most Europeans have become comfortably well-off and lazy, more concerned with having a nice time than with the basics of self-defence. The richest undefended empire in history – as I like to call the EU – is facing growing problems on its eastern and southern flanks. Both refugees and related violence press on us from Syria, Iraq, and across north Africa to Morocco, and Europe is making a very poor job of tackling them. Of course, we’re free riding.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/blo ... urse-he-is

Note that the journalist, Jeffrey Goldberg, is first to use the expression “free riders”, though the president quickly picks it up and endorses it. Washington has made little secret of its European Nato allies cutting their defence budgets to the bone – breaching the 2% of GDP target – before and after the 2008-09 bankers crisis

“When I go back and I ask myself what went wrong,” Obama said, “there’s room for criticism, because I had more faith in the Europeans, given Libya’s proximity, being invested in the follow-up,”

I.e. despite Europe's colonial history with Libya and north Africa in general, and their desire to start that fucking war in the first place, Europe didn't give a flying fuck about Libya after they knocked out Qaddafi, and nobody in the media dares criticize them for it. They dropped it in the lap of the US.

In a world where we still have enough nuclear weapons to blow up the planet ten times over what purpose does it have.

Well, because you have to have an overwhelming commitment to a unified response if something happens. Not everybody is going to be on board with nuking Russia if they make an incursion. So, an alliance that pretty much guarantees that an attack on one is an attack on all, helps avoid the situation in the first place, albeit imperfectly.

It is the toy of America. Just there to crank up fear when required.
The Americans need fear for their anxiety. Once again they have this illusion that the rest of the world thinks like them. Well we dont and sooner NATO is dissolved the better.
Our government is increasing defence spending (the good little country we are) and spending money where? Have a guess? Buying aircraft and tanks. WHAT THE FUCK FOR!!!!! Just to play war fucking games?

This is just projection. You think Americans live in fear because you, yourself, live in fear and anxiety. It's like your and people like you having a reaction to Trump. It's fear. You declare it - you are afraid of what he'll do. And, it's you have the illusion that the rest of the world thinks like you - look at how you talk about the Brits, not just the Americans. You have nothing but scorn and contempt in your posts, because you think that the world should behave and think just like you do -- just like you think the Dutch do - because to you there cannot be another way. Your conceit is unmatched.

Your country's defense spending is an irrelevancy, and the suggestion that your country is "good" is again your conceit rearing its ugly head.

Nobody is forcing you - the enlightened nation - to stay in NATO at all. Withdraw. It's a voluntary organization. And, nobody is forcing your country to buy tanks and aircraft.

And "what for?" Disband your armed forces, withdraw from NATO, and find out. You act like there isn't war in Europe. You fuckwits had genocides in your back yard in the 1990s, and it was us fearful and anxiety ridden Americans that had to come there and solve it for you. It would be like there being a genocide in Toronto and the US sitting by and asking Europe to fix it.

You couldn't take care of Kosovo, Bosnia and Serbia - puny little nothing countries - and you had to come begging the US to squish the spider for you while you folks stood on a chair flapping your hands. Perhaps if your "good little country" took responsibility for itself and its continent (back yard) you'd realize "what for" instead of just proceeding under blanket of the very security that the US provides (and then questioning the manner in which the US provides it).

And:

Either way, the world we have grown used to and take more or less for granted is unravelling in ways we cannot predict. To take just one promising example, did you know that Abdelaziz Bouteflika,79 [now 81], Algeria’s authoritarian president, is in poor medical shape? Nor did I. But we will because there will be the usual nasty power struggle, in which Islamic State, entrenched over the Libyan border in Sirte, may take an interest: the Bouteflika regime is very anti-Islamist.

Algeria is a serious country with a proper army, capable of great brutality, a tradition it inherited from the French occupation. It is also the EU’s third largest supplier of the gas that keeps us warm and busy.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/blo ... urse-he-is and https://globalriskinsights.com/2017/10/ ... g-algeria/

And, let's place bets on when things go south in Algeria soon, will the great EU and it's highly capable and properly organized political state, with just the right sized military that any proper civilized country would have..... will they handle it? Or, will they come again, hat in hand, to the US?

[Svartalf]

fuck goal 17 with a giant, spiked dildo... it's an objective, not a law text, and nothing can force any country to translate that into local law, and most governments trying that would find themselves losing the next elections promptly and the law being reversed /repealed by their successors.

[Forty Two]

Pay for your own defense then. Stop bitching, and handle your shit. At least one would expect the superior, way more capable, European countries - especially the Netherlands which does everything better than every other country - would be handling things on your borders. Russia borders ya'll - and part of it is in Europe. That's your baby, oh, superior ones. Go on. Deal with Putin. Nobody is fucking stopping you from stepping up to the wicket.

Ukraine needs some attention, too. You have the better way - better legal system, better political system, better industrial system, better primary school system, better college system, better social structure, better beer, better bread, better cheese, better food, better wine, better french fries, better language, better physiques - you name it - we've discussed them all on this forum - better everything in Europe, especially on the continent.

So, come on guys. Lead the way. Please teach us how problems are solved the European way. The US is incompetent, selfish, and downright evil - it's doomed to failure. You're doing more than your fair share already, so stop letting the US get all the attention. Come on Euros. Take your turn! Anyone.... anyone.... Bueller.... Bueller.....

Your benevolent colonialism was such a boon to the world. Let's see your exceptional competence again. The British Empire, the French Empire, the Spanish Empire, the Portuguese Empire, the Dutch Empire (best empire ever!), the German Empire, the Austro Hungarian Empire, the Russian Empire (sowing discord and interfering with other countries' politics since Ivan the Terrible), even the Italian Empire (no no, silly goose - conquering Ethiopia doesn't reboot the Roman Empire, lol) -- history has proven that these European benevolent, voluntary associations, did great charitable work throughout the world. Third worlders would come running and fill out applications to join one of the better empires. Come on guys! Ukraine needs your help. Chechnya needs your help! Russia must be dealt with! North Africa must be protected and saved from oppression! The middle east needs peace! That's just in your neighborhood. Could you start there?

[Svartalf]

We'll bitch all we need, America made themselves the world police, they can't get out of their obligations as such that easily, after all, we are the first line of NATO, and we need our allies to be ready to fulfill their obligations whenever Putin and the Soviets decide that aggressive action is more profitable than civilised behaviour...

[laklak]

You forgot shitty yellow mustard, 42, and the Belgian Empire, which brought civilization and the Grace of the Lord Jesus to those benighted Congolese savages.

But yeah, we certainly need to honor our NATO treaties. however, from what I'm finding on-line the U.S. funds about 22% of NATO's common defense fund, spending 3.6% of our GDP on it. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask other signatories to pony up. After all, the chances of anyone invading the U.S. are pretty small, except for Mexican MS13 gang members and Canadian weed farmers. If the excrement hits the overhead rotary air movement device it's happening in Eastern Europe. Maybe Europe could contribute to the border wall, help secure our borders?

[Cunt]

fuck goal 17 with a giant, spiked dildo...

Does that mean you read it and disagree? Or you don't care what it says?

it's an objective, not a law text,

Same as the pronoun protection in Canada - when you make something a 'Human Right TM', you empower that enforcement body to, well, enforce.

I mean, unless words mean nothing, then why sign it at all?

and nothing can force any country to translate that into local law, and most governments trying that would find themselves losing the next elections promptly and the law being reversed /repealed by their successors.

Is that what France is doing now (along with other protests around Europe) ?

Reversing / repealing some unwelcome laws?

[Svartalf]

the moment they try to muzzle the anti immigration crowd, they'll find themselves with a bona fide revolution on their hands, not a little random rioting... actually; with the amount of muslims and other brown folk in the country, it might degenerate into civil war

[Forty Two]

We'll bitch all we need, America made themselves the world police, they can't get out of their obligations as such that easily, after all, we are the first line of NATO, and we need our allies to be ready to fulfill their obligations whenever Putin and the Soviets decide that aggressive action is more profitable than civilised behaviour...

LOL - now they're "obligations?" Y'all have the best systems, law, society, policies, practices, customs and politics. Should be easy-peasy lemon-squeeze-y for the grand-enlightened folk of superior Europe. And, by that, I mean the real Europe, not eastern Europe, the Balkans or Iberia. You know 3-5 insulated north-western European countries. That's Europe.

Your "allies?" If Putin attacks you, what business is that of the US?

It's the same gripe from Europe all the time. You fuckheads started a war among colonial empires -- all ruled by cousins of each other - essentially a war among one ruling family - and then you piss and moan about how the US didn't send our troops to go fight in die in your colonial war soon enough. Then we send our troops over there, at the request of Great Britain and France, no good reason. I mean, the war was started when a Serb shot an Austrian aristocrat, and then Austria-Hungary declared war on Serbia - Russia came to the aid of its ally, Serbia - and then Germany came to the aid of its ally, Austria-Hungary, and then France declared war on Germany as an opportunistic way to grab German land, and then the Brits joined to aid France (but mainly because they didn't want Belgian ports to be closed off to their shipping.

But for some reason, the whole rest of the world had to send their young men to be slaughtered in Europe, because a bunch of kings, czars, archdukes and other and sundry dickwads decided to have a big dick contest.

Then, contrary to advice of the (always wrong and never competent) United States, the victors (thanks in part to the United States) of WW1 decided to humiliate, embarrass and render destitute the losers (Germany, Austria-Hungary and Turkey). They purposefully destroyed those countries, blaming them for the start of a war that was just as much the fault of France, Britain and Russia as the Central Powers.

That oppression and humiliation set the stage for the next War, 20 years later, when Germany was allowed - through the expert diplomacy and forward thinking of the rest of the European powers - to rise up to unparalleled power -- so, despite their superior efforts and European ingenuity, they allowed a massive genocide to take place on the continent, and had to join a brutal war in order to put an end to it. Again, they call upon the US to join in, too -- when we have nothing to do with it. So, we do, and what happens? Europe bitches and moans that we didn't get involved soon enough.... in the war that Europe started, and the US had nothing to do with, and then their descendants come up with a narrative that the US dragged its feet in entering the war, and ignored the holocaust, so it's really the US's fault that it lasted as long as it did -- even though by the time the US entered the war, it was already won and germany was already beaten.

Not to mention the genocides -- Turkey (partly in Europe), Russia (Kossaks and Ukrainians and Poles), aforementioned German genocides, the Greek genocide at the hands of the Ottomans, Chechens, after WW2 the ethnic cleansing of the defeated Germans, and all the other mass genocides up to Bosnia-Hercegovnia, Kosovo, Serbia and the like.

Y'all know how to throw a genocide.

If there is one set of people that deserves the right to pass judgment and be critical of the lifestyles, methods, politics, and history of others, it's the continental Europeans, I'll tell you that. Their history is the history of kindness, generosity, success, intelligence, fairness, and good decision-making.

We can learn a lot from the Europeans. I am on the edge of my seat waiting for the day when they take their rightful place as the world policy leaders, and stop politely taking a back seat to the incompetent and evil Americans.

[Forty Two]

the moment they try to muzzle the anti immigration crowd, they'll find themselves with a bona fide revolution on their hands, not a little random rioting... actually; with the amount of muslims and other brown folk in the country, it might degenerate into civil war

A war in Europe? Unthinkable. That only happens in North America.

[Cunt]

the moment they try to muzzle the anti immigration crowd, they'll find themselves with a bona fide revolution on their hands, not a little random rioting... actually; with the amount of muslims and other brown folk in the country, it might degenerate into civil war

Who would try to 'muzzle the anti immigration crowd'?

And why would they, in a country where people are free?

[Svartalf]

except they'd try to disenfranchise a nasty, violent and already ready to explode segment of the population...
that and the yellow vests might give a real..... volatile social body... and they are already dying for an excuse to explode in riot possibly cause a political shift in favor of their far right ideals...

I"m already quite afraid of what might happen if power fell into the Le Pen witch's lap, I don't want to think what it would be like if something even more extreme rose to the top...

[Forty Two]

You forgot shitty yellow mustard, 42, and the Belgian Empire, which brought civilization and the Grace of the Lord Jesus to those benighted Congolese savages.

Oh, yeah - I remember that one. America has the worst mustard EVAR! It's not that we actually have reasonably sized stores, with nearly an aisle full of about 100 different kinds of mustard of every shade and taste. Every mustard in the US is French's yellow mustard. That's the version they sell in Europe and call "American yellow mustard" so that means that there is no other mustard in the US.

Same thing with beer. Budweiser is the best selling beer (formerly American), so that must mean that's the "best" American beer. We compare Bud to the best beers of Britain and Netherlands and Czech Republic, and obviously Bud is not as good as premium European beers. Europeans have never heard of the 100 different breweries in the US that make quality beer comparable to the best beers in the world, so that means they don't exist.

We have McDonald's here too, so that means EVERYTHING is McDonalds. We have no good restaurants in the US.

Yeap, I forgot the Belgian Empire. That was a grand old genocide, there in Congo - that crazy King Leopold. Those Congolese just ...wouldn't... effing... listen... to ... reason!

But yeah, we certainly need to honor our NATO treaties. however, from what I'm finding on-line the U.S. funds about 22% of NATO's common defense fund, spending 3.6% of our GDP on it. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask other signatories to pony up. After all, the chances of anyone invading the U.S. are pretty small, except for Mexican MS13 gang members and Canadian weed farmers. If the excrement hits the overhead rotary air movement device it's happening in Eastern Europe. Maybe Europe could contribute to the border wall, help secure our borders?

The US funds nearly 1/4 of NATO? Sounds fair.

[Svartalf]

the moment they try to muzzle the anti immigration crowd, they'll find themselves with a bona fide revolution on their hands, not a little random rioting... actually; with the amount of muslims and other brown folk in the country, it might degenerate into civil war

Who would try to 'muzzle the anti immigration crowd'?

And why would they, in a country where people are free?

morons trying to enact goal 17 et al into law and make criticizing immigration from uncivilized places into our fair lands illegal.

and that's precisely why they shouldn't do it, people need to feel free, so the PC crowd (check my sig) might have bad ideas about restraining free speech that they'd regard hate speech.

[Cunt]

except they'd try to disenfranchise a nasty, violent and already ready to explode segment of the population...
that and the yellow vests might give a real..... volatile social body... and they are already dying for an excuse to explode in riot possibly cause a political shift in favor of their far right ideals...

I"m already quite afraid of what might happen if power fell into the Le Pen witch's lap, I don't want to think what it would be like if something even more extreme rose to the top...

Are you suggesting that a segment of the population is anti-immigration?

I have my doubts about that...especially in the modern world. More likely it seems to me that those who oppose parts of immigration policy are deemed 'anti-immigration' and...well...disenfranchised.

Here is a test - can you find anyone who is anti-immigration, or pro-immigration? Or will everyone's position require a bit more nuance?

[Svartalf]

bugger nuance, with a broomstick.