US 2018 November elections

[Forty Two]

Now, none of that makes for a brilliant thinker. Why should it? More importantly, why should a teacher have to be a brilliant thinker? Can you imagine some brilliant thinkers who might have been horrible teachers?

Public school teachers are not at any real risk of "causing children to think". The tendency in American schools is to institute structure, level classes to smooth outcomes over groups, teach children how to regurgitate some stuff which they soon forget, precisely because they are not taught how to think, and schools crush creativity and destroy the love of learning.

[Forty Two]

It's not a particularly highly paid profession, average salary in Florida is about 50K. You get a bit of time off, and there's a good benefits and retirement package, so you'd have to factor that in. Also, Florida has lower average salaries across the board, you pay for the weather.

Definitely not a particularly highly paid profession, but it is generally subject to collective bargaining, has job security, has a large amount of vacation time, relatively short working hours on average, and generous benefits.

[Sean Hayden]

Teachers are always viewed suspiciously by politicians, because they may actually cause children to think...

Not in the US. Teachers and journalists tend to be, intellectually, on the approximately the level of used car salesmen. It's a crying shame, actually. Teachers in the high school level and below in the US are, for the most part, not in any position to cause anyone to think. They are trained to present material given to them. Hardly any have any background in "how" to think, because their education requirements to become a primary school teacher doesn't require (generally speaking) higher level mathematics, sciences, logic, grammar/structure of language, semantics, philosophy, rhetoric, classical coursework, history, geography, and the like.

There are, of course, exceptions, but if you go to any American high school and talk to the teachers, you aren't going to find brilliant thinkers. Hardly any of them have deep knowledge of core courses, and hardly any of them would understand basic logic.

It may be a defect peculiar to the American system.

Sure, it could be better. Some states have better requirements than others.

I wonder if this isn't just more of your teary eyed idealism though. I mean, you don't expect to find brilliant thinkers? Are you fucking high?

No, I don't expect to find brilliant thinkers. JimC apparently does.

Yeah, har har.

Anyway, I have to apologize for being somewhat snappy. I've got a bit of cognitive dissonance over this issue. I have been frustrated myself by peers I don't think should be teachers.

As for your comment about the system in general, I'm sorry you feel that way. It's not true. For example, the goal isn't to smooth out results, a lie that was probably started by people upset that schools were going to be forced to educate even slow learners. The goal as it relates to that complaint is to diversify methods so as to reach the greatest number of students. If you think your child is so far ahead of her peers that a regular classroom would hold her back, then you should have her tested for gifted and talented classes. If your school doesn't offer that then you should take it up with them.


As for just learning information that is also not true. But, it would be disastrous not to expect your teachers to give students the knowledge they need. Again, it's about the method. The worst class is the lecture only class and we are encouraged to avoid it. Thankfully teachers are given a great deal of freedom when it comes to lesson planning.

To end on a positive note, an actual goal and it's a biggie is to focus on literacy and to get kids reading often.

[Forty Two]

No - I see it first-hand.

A common complaint from parents in my state is that kids who are ahead in a class sit there and wait. They don't get to mine the vein they've found. I'm sure many teachers would love it if kids excelled in an area ahead of peers, but the system is set up for 1st graders to do first grade stuff, which leaves a kid like mine ,who was reading at a second or third grade level and doing addition and subtraction at 4 years old, before she started kindergarten, twiddling thumbs.

I have taken the necessary steps with my kid to make sure that she doesn't get held back by the public school system - took her out of the public school system for now, and she's knocking it out of the park and having fun while doing it. She's a kid - there is no time to wait for a public school to spend a few years wrangling about setting up a system. Now is the time for her to learn - while she's a veritable sponge of knowledge.

It's worse than "just learning information." Kids graduating high school today don't even have information. The theory came to play that education isn't about "just learning facts and figures, and the three r's" with some idea that kids should be learning higher concepts -- why and how and not so much who what where and when - only - the education system apparently forgot that you really can't know for yourself "why and how" and higher concepts and abstractions until you know "who what where and when."

I 100% agree with you on literacy. Reading is job 1. My theory on that is that if a kindergartener can already read, it reduces the likelihood that the child will miss something in class that they can't quickly catch up on. I noticed my kid, when she was 3 and starting to recognize words and read small amounts, she was already soaking up knowledge. We'd talk about what it said on boxes in stores, on signs along the road, etc. - we'd sit and read and I'd point to each word as I read to her. When she was 4 and reading, all of a sudden the freight train of knowledge was partly running on its own - she was soaking up stuff because she would sound out and read everything.

And, then the love of learning needs to be instilled - what happens too often is that a kid that learns reading and math early doesn't end up staying ahead -- why? The public school system sees to it that they get leveled off. They drop down from being ahead, and instead wind up around the same as the other kids once they're a few grades in. Some stay ahead, but too many just stagnate, under the punishing weight of the lines, rules, structure, standardization, etc., of the school system.

[Tero]

Why do you hate government so much? Education?

[Sean Hayden]

I believe that what you're describing does happen 42. However, it is not part of the system. If it is happening at your school then it should be addressed. A good teacher will use differentiated instruction. They can determine their students' abilities in the beginning and use that information to inform their instruction eg students that are ahead of their peers can be given different assignments. Contrary to what some parents believe, the system doesn't have a problem with that. Teachers are allowed to do it and they should be encouraged to do so.

As for kids leaving school without learning what they should, yes, this does happen and it's unacceptable. However, most people would be surprised to learn that things are actually better today than in your day. People often assume that kids are getting dumber, but it's just the opposite. We've never had so many people performing on the level they are. I'll dig up some numbers for you later, I've posted them before.

[Forty Two]

I believe that what you're describing does happen 42. However, it is not part of the system. If it is happening at your school then it should be addressed. A good teacher will use differentiated instruction. They can determine their students' abilities in the beginning and use that information to inform their instruction eg students that are ahead of their peers can be given different assignments. Contrary to what some parents believe, the system doesn't have a problem with that. Teachers are allowed to do it and they should be encouraged to do so.

As for kids leaving school without learning what they should, yes, this does happen and it's unacceptable. However, most people would be surprised to learn that things are actually better today than in your day. People often assume that kids are getting dumber, but it's just the opposite. We've never had so many people performing on the level they are. I'll dig up some numbers for you later, I've posted them before.

It's not happening at my kids' school, because my kids' school uses a completely different system than the public schools. Excellence is rewarded - initiative is rewarded.

Well, I disagree - the system does have a problem with that, and I would love to see how many kids get different assignments to bring home. Whether they are "allowed" to do it, is one thing - whether they do it is another.

I would love to see the evidence that kids are LEARNING more than ever before. The measurement of performing better is based on whatever measuring stick you're using. I'm open to the proof, but to date I have not seen it.

ONLY ABOUT A THIRD OF U.S. high school seniors are prepared for college-level coursework in math and reading. And while the performance of the country’s highest achievers is increasing in reading, the lowest-achieving students are performing worse than ever.

Those are some of the latest findings from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, also known as the Nation’s Report Card or NAEP, which published new data Wednesday showing the achievement of high school seniors.

The 2015 assessment results are based on a nationally representative sample of thousands of 12th-grade students from 740 schools, including private institutions.

The analysis shows that 37 percent of students are prepared for college-level math and reading, down 2 percentage points in math and 1 percentage point in reading since 2013, the last time the tests were administered.

Just 25 percent of students scored proficient or higher in math, and 37 percent scored proficient or higher in reading – a slight decrease of 1 percentage point in both subjects.

However, the number of students scoring below a basic level in math increased from 35 percent in 2013 to 38 percent in 2015. The results were similar in reading, going from 25 percent in 2013 to 28 percent in 2015.

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/20 ... -data-show

Anyway - I have met some great teachers, too.

[Forty Two]

Why do you hate government so much? Education?

Why do you love government so much? A lack of education?

[Svartalf]

As for kids leaving school without learning what they should, yes, this does happen and it's unacceptable. However, most people would be surprised to learn that things are actually better today than in your day. People often assume that kids are getting dumber, but it's just the opposite. We've never had so many people performing on the level they are. I'll dig up some numbers for you later, I've posted them before.

Back in the 50s Bob Heinlein was already berating high schools as idiot factories, and never mind what he had to say of institutions of higher learning that were not engineering schools (say like MIT or CalTech)...

[Sean Hayden]

The measurement of performing better is based on whatever measuring stick you're using. I'm open to the proof, but to date I have not seen it.

Indeed, which is why the last time we had this discussion I referred you to The National Assesment of Educational Progress rather than to a news article. The NAEP assessments are designed to remain consistent so as to provide reliable data across years.

I just took another peek, this time at math for 8th graders from 1990 to 2017 and once again I found improvement. I did the same for you before with reading. Go check out the site, it's pretty cool.

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/ndecore/xplore/NDE

[Sean Hayden]

As for kids leaving school without learning what they should, yes, this does happen and it's unacceptable. However, most people would be surprised to learn that things are actually better today than in your day. People often assume that kids are getting dumber, but it's just the opposite. We've never had so many people performing on the level they are. I'll dig up some numbers for you later, I've posted them before.

Back in the 50s Bob Heinlein was already berating high schools as idiot factories, and never mind what he had to say of institutions of higher learning that were not engineering schools (say like MIT or CalTech)...

He sounds like your typical asshole.

[Tero]

Why do you hate government so much? Education?

Why do you love government so much? A lack of education?

Government, like democracy, is preferred to anarchy. We can fix it. We just fixed Trump. Only took 2 years. lame duck now. He better start a war soon.

[Sean Hayden]

Here is the sky-is-falling math result 12th grade from 2005-2015 btw:

sky_is_falling.png

[Tero]

Broward County again at the center of turmoil in a Florida recount
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/broward-co ... a-recount/

[L'Emmerdeur]

Those sneaky liberals would insist on counting votes. The gall of them!