The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:34 am

JimC wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:02 am
I've always wondered how big an influence that US voter's evident distaste for Clinton had on the election result, rather than them wanting Trump per se...
Yeah, but that nasty woman... so nasty... still polled more votes.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by JimC » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:22 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:34 am
JimC wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:02 am
I've always wondered how big an influence that US voter's evident distaste for Clinton had on the election result, rather than them wanting Trump per se...
Yeah, but that nasty woman... so nasty... still polled more votes.
Sure, that's the electoral college anomaly. But I've always wondered whether a Democrat cleanskin candidate would have done even better; perhaps quite a few voters disliked Trump, but couldn't bring themselves to vote Clinton, so didn't vote at all...
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Hermit » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:27 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:10 am
Yeah. I guess I'm more directing my comment towards 42 and his false dichotomy he presented to me - Clinton or Trump.
The first past the post system being what it is, that is precisely the dichotomy: Clinton or Trump. If you voted for the Greens, Libertarian Party or anyone else you've helped Trump win. The only way to not help him was to vote Clinton.

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by JimC » Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:31 am

Hermit wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:27 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:10 am
Yeah. I guess I'm more directing my comment towards 42 and his false dichotomy he presented to me - Clinton or Trump.
The first past the post system being what it is, that is precisely the dichotomy: Clinton or Trump. If you voted for the Greens, Libertarian Party or anyone else you've helped Trump win. The only way to not help him was to vote Clinton.
Exactly. If there were enough people who simply couldn't bring themselves to do that, specifically because it was Clinton, Trump got the boost he needed...
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:01 am

Hermit wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:27 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:10 am
Yeah. I guess I'm more directing my comment towards 42 and his false dichotomy he presented to me - Clinton or Trump.
The first past the post system being what it is, that is precisely the dichotomy: Clinton or Trump. If you voted for the Greens, Libertarian Party or anyone else you've helped Trump win. The only way to not help him was to vote Clinton.
Yeah, I refuse to be dictated to by shit and shitter as to who I should vote for. I've never voted like that, and I'll never do it. The only reason it works is that everyone follows the same tactic. If everyone bit the bullet and voted for who they actually wanted (i.e. not one of the two majors), then you'd see a rapid improvement in the quality of the two majors.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:02 am

I should add, it's easy to vote like that in Oz where we have preferential voting. So I can vote for the Greens but still end up voting for Labor over the Coalition.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Svartalf » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:34 am

JimC wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:02 am
I've always wondered how big an influence that US voter's evident distaste for Clinton had on the election result, rather than them wanting Trump per se...
Still, it takes an uncommon dose of stupidity or sheer malice to choose that clown over the gold digger
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Svartalf » Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:37 am

Hermit wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:08 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:05 am
Well remember they have the option of not voting there. They could also vote a third party / independent. It's not a dichotomy between bad and really bad.
If a voter's intent is to prevent the really bad getting into the office it is a dichotomy.
+1 to Hermit... not voting is consenting to what the actual voters will choose, and voting for unelectably small 3rd party options is barely better, shows your disagreement and protest, but ultimately serves no useful purpose.

which is why I still vote, I'm tired of my canidate never even listing as an also ran, though.
Last edited by Svartalf on Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:02 am

It does not matter the Russians were manipulating the vote because the swing needed in the Electoral College is so small they did not have to change much. Only three key states had to be altered.

Another point; what has Trump achieved? Nothing positive. Only lies and claims.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:39 am

Svartalf wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:37 am
Hermit wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:08 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:05 am
Well remember they have the option of not voting there. They could also vote a third party / independent. It's not a dichotomy between bad and really bad.
If a voter's intent is to prevent the really bad getting into the office it is a dichotomy.
+1 to Hermit... not voting is consenting to what the actual voters will choose, and voting for unelectably small 3rd party options is barely better, shows your disagreement and protest, but ultimately serves no useful purpose.
This is just circular reasoning (and therefore crap). The only reason it serves no useful purpose is that people keep acting like it serves no useful purpose.
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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Hermit » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:17 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:01 am
Hermit wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:27 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:10 am
Yeah. I guess I'm more directing my comment towards 42 and his false dichotomy he presented to me - Clinton or Trump.
The first past the post system being what it is, that is precisely the dichotomy: Clinton or Trump. If you voted for the Greens, Libertarian Party or anyone else you've helped Trump win. The only way to not help him was to vote Clinton.
Yeah, I refuse to be dictated to by shit and shitter as to who I should vote for. I've never voted like that, and I'll never do it. The only reason it works is that everyone follows the same tactic. If everyone bit the bullet and voted for who they actually wanted (i.e. not one of the two majors), then you'd see a rapid improvement in the quality of the two majors.
I think in Australia everyone does vote for who they actually wanted. The great thing about preferential voting is that unlike the US and the UK, voting Green, or whatever other minor party you actually want in office, is not entirely wasted, but at best your vote finishes up with shit rather than shittier anyway in almost all cases. 145 out of 150 seats went to either Labor or the Coalition in the house of reps. The situation in the Senate is only a bit better (56 out of 76) because the system basically works like a multi-member constituency.

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:20 am

Just have PR and be done with it. No thresholds.
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:37 am

No no no.
Scot Dutchy wrote:It does not matter the Russians were manipulating the vote because the swing needed in the Electoral College is so small they did not have to change much. Only three key states had to be altered.

Another point; what has Trump achieved? Nothing positive. Only lies and claims.
He's drained the swamp, balanced the supreme court, rebalanced the USs trade position, deported criminal aliens and stopped Muslim terrorists entering the country,, revitalised the coal industry and made global warming a non-issue, exposed the deep state, improved tax law and reduced the liability of citizens and businesses, destroyed Obama's socialist healthcare, challenged the liberal bias of institutions like the FBI, created SPACE FORCE, taken on the mainstream media, brought the concerns of oppressed white America to the fore, promoted peace in the Middle East and Asia, improved relations with Russia, and generally made America great again.

:tea:
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Scot Dutchy » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:39 am

So what did he do that was positive and can be proven by facts not just claims?
"Wat is het een gezellig boel hier".

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Re: The Intelligence Community - Champion of Democracy

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:54 am

Pff. If Trump cured cancer liberals would criticise him for not curing AIDS. Some people are never happy. :tea:
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

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