Change the name of Israel

[Forty Two]

Unarmed and peaceful protests? That's ridiculous. They were using molotov cocktails and other weapons, they were cutting through the border fence. They brought tires in to set fire and make huge plumes of smoke to obscure vision, so they could get at the fence and the Israeli soldiers.

You tell me to "stop watching fox news" but you believe nonsense. One, I don't watch Fox News, and two, you'd have to be really dishonest to say that these riots were peaceful. Hamas said, flat out, that 50 of the 60 shot were Hamas members fighting against Israel.

They were planting explosives, firing guns and launching Molotov cocktails and kites carrying burning fuel into Israeli territory to set farm fields aflame. That's not "peaceful and unarmed protest." They shot down an IDF helicopter, and IEDs were placed on the border fence in numerous locations.

Israel dropped leaflets saying that

On NPR, Steve Inskeep asked a Hamas member why he was flying a kite with a swastika on it. Steve Inskeep reminded him that the Israelis were "using the image of palestinians with swastikas" as press against the Palestinians. The guy responded that this was what they mean, and they want the Jews to burn.

The videos available - if you watch something other than CNN and the like - show the Palestinians approaching the border wall with tires to
set fire and create smokescreens, and then break through the fence and enter Israel. They send teenagers and women to do this, because they want to create a public relations issue for Israel. While they do this, they send molotov cocktails and kites and balloons with burning charcoal and other devices attached to do damage and hopefully kill Israeli Jews.



This is what we want them to know. That we want to burn them.

And, Inskeep postures this as "the Jews want to make you look like bad people when you fly burning kites with swastikas on them..." Not sure why the focus wouldn't be on why the Palestinians are flying swastikas in the first place, but the Palestinian just goes on and explains why - they know the "Jews go crazy when they see Hitler" etc.... oh, really? I wonder why? What a shocker, those Jews, getting a little antsy about kites with molotov cocktails attached to them bearing swastikas.... and "this is what we want them to know - we want them to burn."

They want to burn Jews.

And Hamas leaders declared that it was their goal to break through the fence, and kill Israelis.

[mistermack]

A little clue to how much of a danger the protester are is in the casualty figures.

Vicious Jewish bastards nil

Stone throwers literally thousands.

Only a moron can see that as self defence.

[Strontium Dog]

Yeah, because it's all about numbers. Whoever has fewer dead = the bad guys in war, is what I call Retard Logic.

[JimC]

The biggest stumbling block to this situation in the easy cynicism which maintains that nothing can be done about it.

Well, I'm not exactly saying that - it could be sorted if the opposing sides were not so entrenched and polarised. Can you, or any political pundit, see a way for the 2 sides to compromise?

So, it's not "easy cynicism", it's extremely depressing, pessimistic realism...

Sorry Jim. It was a general comment rather than a direct reply. But while people are throwing up their hands and shaking their heads and saying the situation is essentially unresolvable they're not asking themselves the important stuff like how long are we prepared to live in fear, why isn't securing a lasting peace our top priority, or what do we actually need to do--what action can we take and what compromises can we make--to actually achieve the latter and put the former behind us once and for all.

The only thing that "we", that is ordinary people in Western countries can do is perhaps not vote for conservatives who will automatically support Israel no matter what they do; they are not feeling any international pressure that means anything at the moment.

Also, we can hopefully resist the unthinking polarisation so evident in this thread, where most posters are either staunchly pro-Israeli, no matter what the government does (and that Hamas are such evil terrorists/jihadists that any grievances by Palestinians can be disregarded). The other side unrealistically sticks to listing a litany of wrongs by Israel, glosses over the very real manipulation of their own population by Hamas (only seeing peaceful protestors, nothing else...) and who frequently end with the empty rhetoric that Israel should not exist. Half the posters will now attack me for the first part of this paragraph, the rest will castigate me for the second...

[Strontium Dog]

I freely admit the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and that the Israelis all too frequently overstep the mark. I try very hard to maintain a balanced view on the issue, albeit as balanced as one can be when one side wants to maintain a secular democracy and the other wants to establish a homophobic misogynistic theocracy.

[Forty Two]

The Palestinians, also, have a solution right at their finger tips. They have a world that loathes Israel, and no matter what the provocation condemns Israel's conduct. The minority, the US and a couple other countries, stand behind Israel and its right to exist.

If the Palestinians wanted a two state solution, with their state side by side with Israel, they would have it. The US would not stand in the way - the US has been trying to broker a two state solution for 70 years.

The thing standing in the way of peace is that the Palestinians, by and large, even the moderates, want to destroy Israel and make it an Arab Muslim state, because Jews don't below there. This is what some folks refuse to accept. Listen to the NPR commentator, Steve Inskeep, when he interviews the Palestinian. Inskeep hands the guy an out - he is asking why the Palestinians are giving the Israelis propaganda to use against them - why wave the Swastika, when they can use that to claim you are bad people. The guy flat out says incredulously - as if Inskeep is asking him the silliest question in the world - because this is what we want them to know - we want them to burn. They want to burn the Jews. Give them the chance, and they will commit a holocaust. It's what they openly say they want.

The world could end this thing anytime, too. If the UN stood together, and all ships sailed in the same direction - two state solution - then there would be a solution. The problem arises when there are all these cracks in the alliances, and the Palestinians think they can get sympathy and they think if they keep fighting, they eventually really will be able to flip Israel into a Muslim country. That ain't going to happen, though. It can't happen. If they do that, then you'll have Jewish purges worse than the Christian purges in Lebanon and such. There will be a massive ethnic cleansing.

[JimC]

I freely admit the Palestinians have legitimate grievances, and that the Israelis all too frequently overstep the mark. I try very hard to maintain a balanced view on the issue, albeit as balanced as one can be when one side wants to maintain a secular democracy and the other wants to establish a homophobic misogynistic theocracy.

How committed to an Islamic state are Hamas? I do not get the impression that Jihadist fervour is their main motivator...

Then of course there is Hezbollah, who have a Shiite solution in mind. Thank heaven for the Sunni/Shiite divide; the more time they spend attacking each other, the better...

[Strontium Dog]

How committed to an Islamic state are Hamas? I do not get the impression that Jihadist fervour is their main motivator...

They're pretty strict to be honest, albeit not to Islamic State levels; they're more like the Taliban.

[Forty Two]

Hamas is the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. “Hamas” is an acronym of ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’. According to Hamas’ co-founder, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, Hamas was created in order to ‘liberate Palestine’, and create an Islamic state instead of what is now Israel, including but not limited to the West Bank and the Golan Heights.

Hamas steals the money donated from foreign sources to help the Palestinians and they use the money to fund terror attacks, and projects like the terrorist tunnels which cost millions of dollars to create. They send their own people into harms way, fomenting violent riots to create violent incidents that they think will create foreign sympathy (and they are often successful at that).

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble to Hamas' Covenant)

'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.' (Hamas' Covenant - Article 6)

'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.' (Hamas Covenant Article 11)

'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Muslim wherever he may be.' (Hamas Covenant Article 13)

'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Hamas Covenant Article 13)

'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Muslims fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Muslim, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Hamas Covenant Article 7 - quoting a highly popular Hadith on what should happen to Jews)

They blame the Jews for all the wars, including World War 2 and World War 1 (Article 22)

'Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'.' (Article 32)

'Hamas regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.' (Article 32)

'The day the enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15)

That's what Israel is contending with.

[JimC]

OK, they do seem to be more Islamic and fanatical than I thought...

[pErvinalia]

Unarmed and peaceful protests? That's ridiculous. They were using molotov cocktails and other weapons, they were cutting through the border fence. They brought tires in to set fire and make huge plumes of smoke to obscure vision, so they could get at the fence and the Israeli soldiers.

You tell me to "stop watching fox news" but you believe nonsense. One, I don't watch Fox News, and two, you'd have to be really dishonest to say that these riots were peaceful.

I didn't say the riots were peaceful. You'd have to be really dishonest to say that I did.

[Hermit]

How committed to an Islamic state are Hamas? I do not get the impression that Jihadist fervour is their main motivator...

As Forty Two mentioned, Hamas is the Palestine Branch of the Muslim Brotherhood. There is no doubt that it has the same aim as all the other branches: to establish an Islamic theocracy. Moreover, as the Muslim Brotherhood in turn is essentially a Sunni organisation, this theocracy is very likely to be rather more oppressive of its own people than if it were established by the Shia Muslims.

Forty Two is quoting from the 1988 version of the Hamas charter (or constitution), which was drafted in the wake of the first intifada. Not a single one of those quotes appear in the current version, which was adopted in Doha last year. That said, its new preamble restates the original aim, that "...resistance that shall continue until liberation is accomplished, until the return is fulfilled and until a fully sovereign state is established with Jerusalem as its capital." I suspect that the changes in wording are cosmetic, motivated by public relations considerations.

[mistermack]

If Hamas turned up in Colorado and announced an Islamic State, then criticism of their aims and policies might be valid.
In their own country, they can do what they fucking want. It's nobody's business but theirs.

If the Jews stuck to their own countries, I wouldn't give a fuck what they did.
But doing what they are doing to an innocent population is fucking obscene.

Winston Churchill said " we will fight them on the beaches, in the towns etc etc, we will NEVER surrender" and everyone says "wow, what a guy".

The Palestinians do the same, and they are terrorists, architects of their own misfortune.
What a load of two-faced bollocks.

[Forty Two]

Unarmed and peaceful protests? That's ridiculous. They were using molotov cocktails and other weapons, they were cutting through the border fence. They brought tires in to set fire and make huge plumes of smoke to obscure vision, so they could get at the fence and the Israeli soldiers.

You tell me to "stop watching fox news" but you believe nonsense. One, I don't watch Fox News, and two, you'd have to be really dishonest to say that these riots were peaceful.

I didn't say the riots were peaceful. You'd have to be really dishonest to say that I did.

Oh, good I stand corrected. You did not say the riots were peaceful, you said "there were unarmed and peaceful protesters there." Right?

O.k. so how do you characterize the riots, then, if they were not peaceful? What were they? Would you say they were violent? Would you say they were "unpeaceful"?

Was Israel confronted by armed and violent rioters?

Were rioters attacking the border fence?

Were rioters trying to enter Israel through the border fence?

Were rioters trying to kill Israelis?

Did rioters have the goal of doing so?

Did Hamas admit that most of the 60 +/- killed were Hamas members?

Were tires set on fire to create black smoke to allow rioters cover to approach the border fence?

Were molotov cocktails delivered by various means against Israeli locations?

[Forty Two]

The current version was just adopted in 2017, and states "Hamas believes that no part of the land of Palestine shall be compromised or conceded, irrespective of the causes, the circumstances and the pressures and no matter how long the occupation lasts. Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea." The river being the Jordan. The Sea being the Mediterrenean.

And, I've read commentary that the 2017 document does not explicitly supplant the original 1988 document. To our western reading, that may be thought implicit in the existence of the new document. But the fact that it does not say that it supersedes the previous Covenant is something to consider.

Moreover, it does cosmetically remove a lot of the Jew references, and it contains some language about a country on the 1967 borders, it says so without prejudice to the general goal, explicitly stated in section 20, that it will not stop until the entire area from river to sea is liberated [from the Jews].