The size of the universe - a question.

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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:41 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:39 am
I kind of feel like we are getting nowhere again. There's still too many holes for me. I want to see a whole picture explanation that makes sense considering what we actually know about the universe. Not just a series of quotes out of New Scientists... ;)
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:51 am

Another thing on the centre of the universe question. If the universe had a centre which all things move away from then we are at that centre because everything moves away from us equally in all directions. If we were not at the centre then then things on the side of us away from the centre would be moving away faster while things on the underside would move slower or even towards us.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:52 am

Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:41 am
pErvinalia wrote:You can't hold the position that it's both unknown that this is the case, and also that there definitively isn't a centre to the universe. The two positions are incompatible.
If the universe is infinite there's no centre. How could there be?
You've missed the point. Earlier on you declared definitively that there is no centre of the universe. That can only hold true if the universe is infinite. But just above you've claimed that we don't know whether the universe is infinite. Therefore you can't know definitively that there is no centre to the universe.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:53 am

Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:41 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:39 am
I kind of feel like we are getting nowhere again. There's still too many holes for me. I want to see a whole picture explanation that makes sense considering what we actually know about the universe. Not just a series of quotes out of New Scientists... ;)
One of us is getting nowhere.
There's a number of things that you haven't addressed. And a number of things have been addressed with "just-so" stories, not reason and evidence. And then there's these types of answers.

Also, see my edit to the post you quoted above.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:54 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:41 am
pErvinalia wrote:You can't hold the position that it's both unknown that this is the case, and also that there definitively isn't a centre to the universe. The two positions are incompatible.
If the universe is infinite there's no centre. How could there be?
You've missed the point. Earlier on you declared definitively that there is no centre of the universe. That can only hold true if the universe is infinite. But just above you've claimed that we don't know whether the universe is infinite. Therefore you can't know definitively that there is no centre to the universe.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:02 am

Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:51 am
Another thing on the centre of the universe question. If the universe had a centre which all things move away from then we are at that centre because everything moves away from us equally in all directions. If we were not at the centre then then things on the side of us away from the centre would be moving away faster while things on the underside would move slower or even towards us.
This isn't accurate, but you might be on the right track. Things closer to the centre are moving outwards at a slower rate than things further out. So we would still be moving away from the things closer in. But, without doing any maths (Jim, can you do some for us?), I'd suspect that you are right that the rates between closer in stuff and further out stuff, in relation to us, would be different. This doesn't fit with observation, so I think you are right that this would explain how there is no centre of the universe. Unless there was some other arrangement. I'm assuming that it's not the case that there's a giant spherical region of nothing in the universe, around which there is a balloon like surface of matter expanding outwards? Matter is fairly evenly distributed throughout the universe, right?
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:06 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:02 am
Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:51 am
Another thing on the centre of the universe question. If the universe had a centre which all things move away from then we are at that centre because everything moves away from us equally in all directions. If we were not at the centre then then things on the side of us away from the centre would be moving away faster while things on the underside would move slower or even towards us.
This isn't accurate, but you might be on the right track. Things closer to the centre are moving outwards at a slower rate than things further out. So we would still be moving away from the things closer in. But, without doing any maths (Jim, can you do some for us?), I'd suspect that you are right that the rates between closer in stuff and further out stuff, in relation to us, would be different. This doesn't fit with observation, so I think you are right that this would explain how there is no centre of the universe. Unless there was some other arrangement. I'm assuming that it's not the case that there's a giant spherical region of nothing in the universe, around which there is a balloon like surface of matter expanding outwards? Matter is fairly evenly distributed throughout the universe, right?
Yes. Matter is distributed evenly as far as we can see. There's clumping around galaxies and vacuums between, but if you average it it evens out.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:10 am

Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:54 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:41 am
pErvinalia wrote:You can't hold the position that it's both unknown that this is the case, and also that there definitively isn't a centre to the universe. The two positions are incompatible.
If the universe is infinite there's no centre. How could there be?
You've missed the point. Earlier on you declared definitively that there is no centre of the universe. That can only hold true if the universe is infinite. But just above you've claimed that we don't know whether the universe is infinite. Therefore you can't know definitively that there is no centre to the universe.
Answered above.
Sure. But it's got nothing to do with your answer from earlier that invoked the concept of an infinite universe as an explanation for why there is no centre to the universe. This is why it was unfair for you to characterise this debate as "me not getting anywhere", as if you aren't also playing a part in this.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:24 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:10 am
Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:54 am
pErvinalia wrote:
Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:41 am
pErvinalia wrote:You can't hold the position that it's both unknown that this is the case, and also that there definitively isn't a centre to the universe. The two positions are incompatible.
If the universe is infinite there's no centre. How could there be?
You've missed the point. Earlier on you declared definitively that there is no centre of the universe. That can only hold true if the universe is infinite. But just above you've claimed that we don't know whether the universe is infinite. Therefore you can't know definitively that there is no centre to the universe.
Answered above.
Sure. But it's got nothing to do with your answer from earlier that invoked the concept of an infinite universe as an explanation for why there is no centre to the universe. This is why it was unfair for you to characterise this debate as "me not getting anywhere", as if you aren't also playing a part in this.
I think the reason so many people think there's a centre is bacuse the term "big bang" is misleading. They think of it like an explosion which has a centre from which everything moves from. Actually it's just a rapid expansion. Another analogy besides the balloon one is that of a raising cake with raisins in it. You bake a raisin cake and all parts of the cake expand pretty much evenly at the same time and the cake becomes less dense. The universe is like an infinite cake and the galaxies are the raisins.

Still not a perfect analogy. The universe is not expanding due to being heated up. It's really just moving from a high-energy, low entropy state, to a low energy, high entropy state.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:26 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:02 am
Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:51 am
Another thing on the centre of the universe question. If the universe had a centre which all things move away from then we are at that centre because everything moves away from us equally in all directions. If we were not at the centre then then things on the side of us away from the centre would be moving away faster while things on the underside would move slower or even towards us.
This isn't accurate, but you might be on the right track. Things closer to the centre are moving outwards at a slower rate than things further out. So we would still be moving away from the things closer in. But, without doing any maths (Jim, can you do some for us?), I'd suspect that you are right that the rates between closer in stuff and further out stuff, in relation to us, would be different. This doesn't fit with observation, so I think you are right that this would explain how there is no centre of the universe. Unless there was some other arrangement. I'm assuming that it's not the case that there's a giant spherical region of nothing in the universe, around which there is a balloon like surface of matter expanding outwards? Matter is fairly evenly distributed throughout the universe, right?
Unless I'm missing some basic maths, this explanation is wrong too. The rate of things receding from us is independent of whether they are X light years away from us 'inwards' vs 'outwards'. It's actually utterly simplistic maths, unless I've missed something. Draw it out on a piece of paper and see what you come up with. I'm pretty sure you'll find it's wrong.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:28 am

Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:24 am
Still not a perfect analogy. The universe is not expanding due to being heated up. It's really just moving from a high-energy, low entropy state, to a low energy, high entropy state.
That doesn't sound right either. Energy is conserved. You must be meaning something else.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:33 am

I'm taking a break from the thread for a while. There's too much poorly explained. Hopefully Brian will give it a shot at some point.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by Animavore » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:33 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:28 am
Animavore wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:24 am
Still not a perfect analogy. The universe is not expanding due to being heated up. It's really just moving from a high-energy, low entropy state, to a low energy, high entropy state.
That doesn't sound right either. Energy is conserved. You must be meaning something else.
There's no energy lost. It gets dissipated. Spread more thinly. However you want to put it.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by rainbow » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:23 am

The universe only seems to be getting bigger, due to the speed of light decreasing.
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Re: The size of the universe - a question.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:48 am

It's actually God playing tricks on us.
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