Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
When I meet a supposed libertarian who is pro-life I can never get a good argument from them. They always seem to go back to a "life begins at conception" argument, as if the means by which a complete ban on abortion would occur are unimportant. How would one enforce banning chemical abortions (like the morning after pill)? There's no evidence that somebody went missing. Miscarriages happen all the time. Trying to keep a pill illegal? Yeah see how the drug war has worked out so well. Without going full police state, there's no way to stop chemical abortions. Talk of late term abortions and viability aside, libertarianism is completely incompatible with a ban on chemical abortions.
There I've put my cards on the table. I know there are some people who self identify as right wing or libertarian around here. Lefties can go fuck themselves, I don't care about their "Anyone opposed to abortion hates women!" bullshit. I want to hear from intelligent people who might disagree with me. So conservatives, libertarians, etc... who and why are you pro-life on this issue?
There I've put my cards on the table. I know there are some people who self identify as right wing or libertarian around here. Lefties can go fuck themselves, I don't care about their "Anyone opposed to abortion hates women!" bullshit. I want to hear from intelligent people who might disagree with me. So conservatives, libertarians, etc... who and why are you pro-life on this issue?
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
OK, I'm off to go fuck myself.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
Have you given up on the dollar as monetary instrument and gone off the grid yet? I thought so, fake libertarian!
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
I don't see how you can be a Libertarian and pro-life. The Libertarian Party is definitely pro-choice.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
You seem to have an insulting assumption that lefties aren't intelligent people. Ironic when all of the creationists, climate science deniers, and die hard religious people are almost exclusively right-wing.
And it's not so much people who oppose abortion hate women as they want to control them. To the right-wing Christian opposed to abortion it is the teleology of a woman to bear and raise children. Abortion goes against that teleology every bit as much, in their view, as homosexuality goes against natural law. The argument against abortion is inherently right-wing and religious, even when dressed up as a fundamental right to life. Libertarians, in my experience of them, believe in "objective" natural laws. 42 and Seth, for instance, reject moral relativity, despite not believing in an objective arbitrator of such laws. If they view life as a right then being pro-life does not conflict with their Libertarianism.
That said, Libertarianism is such a woolly concept it's hard to pinpoint what is and isn't compatible with it.
And it's not so much people who oppose abortion hate women as they want to control them. To the right-wing Christian opposed to abortion it is the teleology of a woman to bear and raise children. Abortion goes against that teleology every bit as much, in their view, as homosexuality goes against natural law. The argument against abortion is inherently right-wing and religious, even when dressed up as a fundamental right to life. Libertarians, in my experience of them, believe in "objective" natural laws. 42 and Seth, for instance, reject moral relativity, despite not believing in an objective arbitrator of such laws. If they view life as a right then being pro-life does not conflict with their Libertarianism.
That said, Libertarianism is such a woolly concept it's hard to pinpoint what is and isn't compatible with it.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
Infanticide shouldn't be any different.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.
Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
I just didn't want this becoming a generic abortion thread, and so telling people on the left to stay the fuck out is the most effective and blunt way to do that. I am not interested in other arguments for legalized abortion. I want to hear from people who want abortion to be illegal. So yeah, take your butt hurt and shove it. This aint the thread, I don't care.Animavore wrote:You seem to have an insulting assumption that lefties aren't intelligent people. Ironic when all of the creationists, climate science deniers, and die hard religious people are almost exclusively right-wing.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
As in killing your kids should be okay, or abortion should be illegal like killing your own kid?Tyrannical wrote:Infanticide shouldn't be any different.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
Just go to the libertarian off the grid abortion doctor. Abortion is two bits of silver on office days. Three bits of silver at other times.
No authorities or paperwork needed.
No authorities or paperwork needed.
Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
You seem to be tacitly implying there are no left-wing arguments for making abortion illegal, or that such arguments are pretty much exclusively right-wing.Drewish wrote:I just didn't want this becoming a generic abortion thread, and so telling people on the left to stay the fuck out is the most effective and blunt way to do that. I am not interested in other arguments for legalized abortion. I want to hear from people who want abortion to be illegal. So yeah, take your butt hurt and shove it. This aint the thread, I don't care.Animavore wrote:You seem to have an insulting assumption that lefties aren't intelligent people. Ironic when all of the creationists, climate science deniers, and die hard religious people are almost exclusively right-wing.
Have at it, I guess.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.
Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
You know what? I should apologize. I've taken to shitting on whatever side I agree with on an issue, while being very respectful to those I disagree with as a means of building good standing with those to allow for a more open and honest debate with people I disagree with. It's a tactic that has allowed me to cut through the tribalistic crap and more laser focus in on having the kinds of substantive discussions I really want to have. However, I've been absent here for long enough that you all aren't aware that I've taken to this approach, so it just comes off as... Well I'm being an ass. My apologies.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
Arguing with your own side is always a good thing.
I'll bow out now.

I'll bow out now.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
In any case this place doesn't have the sort of traffic it used to, so you might have to wait a while for a few Libertarians to show up..
My take for what it is worth is that the most usual anti-abotion stance has a religious basis - from what I can see from this side of the Atlantic (where this debate is much lower key - much). The starting point seems to be that the first cells that make up a human being have something makes them intrinsically and actually human from the get go - a 'soul' perhaps.
Most American Libertarians are, I assume Christians. So their views are based on their Christian outlook rather than their political/philosophical Libertarianism.
One could of course argue that Libertarianism is essentially un-Christian in that the individual is all - clearly not what Jebus had in mind. If that is the case then Christian Libertarians live with a contradiction. But of course people do - all the time.
My take for what it is worth is that the most usual anti-abotion stance has a religious basis - from what I can see from this side of the Atlantic (where this debate is much lower key - much). The starting point seems to be that the first cells that make up a human being have something makes them intrinsically and actually human from the get go - a 'soul' perhaps.
Most American Libertarians are, I assume Christians. So their views are based on their Christian outlook rather than their political/philosophical Libertarianism.
One could of course argue that Libertarianism is essentially un-Christian in that the individual is all - clearly not what Jebus had in mind. If that is the case then Christian Libertarians live with a contradiction. But of course people do - all the time.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
It resembles sorites paradox to me. In a sense, emotionally I cannot point to a place in my history and say that this part here, just before this other part, cannot, in any sense be considered me. Yet, obviously I'm not the same person today that I was yesterday, many times over. So, there's some confusion there, and I think a lot of anxiety can fit in that confusion.
What I do is say that life involves difficult decisions, and go from there.
What I do is say that life involves difficult decisions, and go from there.
I was given a year of free milkshakes once. The year passed and I hadn’t bothered to get even one.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice
Can't remember whether Seth was pro-life or not.
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