Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

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Drewish
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Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Drewish » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:00 pm

When I meet a supposed libertarian who is pro-life I can never get a good argument from them. They always seem to go back to a "life begins at conception" argument, as if the means by which a complete ban on abortion would occur are unimportant. How would one enforce banning chemical abortions (like the morning after pill)? There's no evidence that somebody went missing. Miscarriages happen all the time. Trying to keep a pill illegal? Yeah see how the drug war has worked out so well. Without going full police state, there's no way to stop chemical abortions. Talk of late term abortions and viability aside, libertarianism is completely incompatible with a ban on chemical abortions.

There I've put my cards on the table. I know there are some people who self identify as right wing or libertarian around here. Lefties can go fuck themselves, I don't care about their "Anyone opposed to abortion hates women!" bullshit. I want to hear from intelligent people who might disagree with me. So conservatives, libertarians, etc... who and why are you pro-life on this issue?
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Rum » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:10 pm

OK, I'm off to go fuck myself.

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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Tero » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:16 pm

Have you given up on the dollar as monetary instrument and gone off the grid yet? I thought so, fake libertarian!

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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by laklak » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:16 pm

I don't see how you can be a Libertarian and pro-life. The Libertarian Party is definitely pro-choice.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Animavore » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:17 pm

You seem to have an insulting assumption that lefties aren't intelligent people. Ironic when all of the creationists, climate science deniers, and die hard religious people are almost exclusively right-wing.

And it's not so much people who oppose abortion hate women as they want to control them. To the right-wing Christian opposed to abortion it is the teleology of a woman to bear and raise children. Abortion goes against that teleology every bit as much, in their view, as homosexuality goes against natural law. The argument against abortion is inherently right-wing and religious, even when dressed up as a fundamental right to life. Libertarians, in my experience of them, believe in "objective" natural laws. 42 and Seth, for instance, reject moral relativity, despite not believing in an objective arbitrator of such laws. If they view life as a right then being pro-life does not conflict with their Libertarianism.

That said, Libertarianism is such a woolly concept it's hard to pinpoint what is and isn't compatible with it.
Libertarianism: The belief that out of all the terrible things governments can do, helping people is the absolute worst.

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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:36 pm

Infanticide shouldn't be any different.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Drewish » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:06 pm

Animavore wrote:You seem to have an insulting assumption that lefties aren't intelligent people. Ironic when all of the creationists, climate science deniers, and die hard religious people are almost exclusively right-wing.
I just didn't want this becoming a generic abortion thread, and so telling people on the left to stay the fuck out is the most effective and blunt way to do that. I am not interested in other arguments for legalized abortion. I want to hear from people who want abortion to be illegal. So yeah, take your butt hurt and shove it. This aint the thread, I don't care.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Drewish » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:07 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Infanticide shouldn't be any different.
As in killing your kids should be okay, or abortion should be illegal like killing your own kid?
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Tero » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:11 pm

Just go to the libertarian off the grid abortion doctor. Abortion is two bits of silver on office days. Three bits of silver at other times.

No authorities or paperwork needed.

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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Animavore » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:13 pm

Drewish wrote:
Animavore wrote:You seem to have an insulting assumption that lefties aren't intelligent people. Ironic when all of the creationists, climate science deniers, and die hard religious people are almost exclusively right-wing.
I just didn't want this becoming a generic abortion thread, and so telling people on the left to stay the fuck out is the most effective and blunt way to do that. I am not interested in other arguments for legalized abortion. I want to hear from people who want abortion to be illegal. So yeah, take your butt hurt and shove it. This aint the thread, I don't care.
You seem to be tacitly implying there are no left-wing arguments for making abortion illegal, or that such arguments are pretty much exclusively right-wing.

Have at it, I guess.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Drewish » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:13 pm

You know what? I should apologize. I've taken to shitting on whatever side I agree with on an issue, while being very respectful to those I disagree with as a means of building good standing with those to allow for a more open and honest debate with people I disagree with. It's a tactic that has allowed me to cut through the tribalistic crap and more laser focus in on having the kinds of substantive discussions I really want to have. However, I've been absent here for long enough that you all aren't aware that I've taken to this approach, so it just comes off as... Well I'm being an ass. My apologies.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Animavore » Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:18 pm

Arguing with your own side is always a good thing. :tup:

I'll bow out now.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Rum » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:25 pm

In any case this place doesn't have the sort of traffic it used to, so you might have to wait a while for a few Libertarians to show up..

My take for what it is worth is that the most usual anti-abotion stance has a religious basis - from what I can see from this side of the Atlantic (where this debate is much lower key - much). The starting point seems to be that the first cells that make up a human being have something makes them intrinsically and actually human from the get go - a 'soul' perhaps.

Most American Libertarians are, I assume Christians. So their views are based on their Christian outlook rather than their political/philosophical Libertarianism.

One could of course argue that Libertarianism is essentially un-Christian in that the individual is all - clearly not what Jebus had in mind. If that is the case then Christian Libertarians live with a contradiction. But of course people do - all the time.

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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by Sean Hayden » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:41 pm

It resembles sorites paradox to me. In a sense, emotionally I cannot point to a place in my history and say that this part here, just before this other part, cannot, in any sense be considered me. Yet, obviously I'm not the same person today that I was yesterday, many times over. So, there's some confusion there, and I think a lot of anxiety can fit in that confusion.

What I do is say that life involves difficult decisions, and go from there.
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Re: Libertarianism is inherently pro-choice

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:51 pm

Can't remember whether Seth was pro-life or not.
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