Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Svartalf » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:57 am

JimC wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:And what makes one of our betters better than the us? How does one become a better, or even a better better?
Competence, skill, knowledge...

Sure, we need elected representatives to reflect the will of the people, but it is vital that those representatives have a certain minimum level of understanding and technical competence (as well as personal integrity), something that tends to be lacking in many politicians. I'm not pretending to offer a solution, but it truly is an issue...
Competence, skill and knowledge are sadly absent from 99% percent of political personnel, and the remaining 1% are crackpots unfit to wield any responsibility...
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by JimC » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:59 am

Good, better, best
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And your better best...
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:53 am

Does MM believe that democracy exits in America or Britain. Both systems are so undemocratic that they dont work. This is obvious with the election of Trump and May. Both were far from democratic. The EC in America should be scrapped. The FPTP in Britain should be scrapped. These days with instant communication they have no place. They both come from the stage coach era where corruption was standard. The constituency system is outmoded. The should be a bigger division between local and national politics. Both should elected by pure PR. The election of leaders is up to the party. People generally vote for the party. Here if you like a particular politician you can vote for him/her and they get preference votes which move them up the electoral list.
Things have to change and the last two elections in Britain really highlighted the problem. In 2015 UKIP got 12.6% with only 1 seat. SNP 4.7% and 56 seats.
America is not better in fact worse.
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:15 am

Hermit wrote:"If voting could change anything, it would be made illegal" First appeared in print in The Lowell Sun, 24 Sep 1976, Fri, Page 7. Variously attributed to Emma Goldman, Philip Berrigan and of course Mark Twain. Other popular authors such as Einstein, Gandhi and Lincoln miss out this time.

Election have always been carefully structured to maintain the status quo. It does not matter whether the Tories, Liberal, Labour, Democrats, Republicans, Greens or whoever else got into government, the wealth continues to accumulate at the top,albeit at different rates. If any individual or any organisation as much as look like being able to upset the apple cart, the media,all owned and controlled by the very rich, go into hysterics. Every. Fucking. Time. Too much democracy will be the end of civilisation. Bad thing will happen. The unwashed masses will get the wrong person at the plane's controls. Some garbo, no doubt. Given the chance, they always do.

Evangelical fundies could learn a thing or two in terms of predicting another imminent apocalypse.

Image

Unfortunately, the scaremongering works. The vast majority of people who vote to maintain the status quo vote against their own interests. Again and again. And that includes the majority of self-described moderates, centrists and lefties.

As for me, Corbyn is the right man precisely because Murdoch and Co say he is the wrong one.
This is the point really. Mr M has been primed to worry about how giving the Labour party membership more say in who the leader is going to somehow mean the party will lurch towards the so-called hard or far left, a 'concern' which itself is part of the right-leaning narrative which holds that anyone who follows the left-leaning path is a dangerous political extremist. Most members of most political parties are well within the bulge of the bell curve and it's as silly to say that those who take an active interest in left-leaning politics are all dogmatic collectivising syndicalists as it is to say that right-leaning activists are all rampant jackbooted fascists. Of course, in UK the right-leaning press sets the context and tone of much of our national political discourse, but if this Corbyn bloke was so dangerous why are the Tories looking to re-dress so much Labour policy in Eton stockings and an old boy tie?

What the right fear in Corbyn is not his policies, but his popularity.

My previous, and un-addressed, point is still relevant here I think. A big part of the Tories political push is to generate an urge among the electorate to vote against the Labour party. "It doesn't really matter what our policies are," they say, "We are the only alternative to chairman Corbyn, who wants to collectivise your granny and send terrorists on bomb making courses paid for by the taxpayer." This is reflected in the fact that we're talking about Labour in the nominal Tory thread - as long as the Tories aren't talking about themselves they think they're on safer ground. The problem with that is might make it seem like Labour and Corbyn is the driving force of UK politics, the only game in town as it were.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:30 am

The advantage of PR is generates leaders who are ready to compromise so idiots like Corbyn would not get a look in. We are finally getting our new cabinet after the elections in March. There are four parties (very unusual) in the coalition. The coalition agreement is almost finalised and great compromises were achieved. This once agreed is set in stone. No policy can be changed and if it is tried the coalition fails and new elections are called. Not like the LibDem-tory atrocity in Britain.
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:35 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:..idiots like Corbyn
:think:
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:42 am

No? Sits on the backbenches for years and votes over 500 times against his own party's policies. Promised everything and delivered nothing. Remember the party member were going to form policy. The 3 quid members. Done u-turn after u-turn that even he forgets what his policies are. For a hard Brexit now after another u-turn wants a soft one but fails to explain how this will be achieved in the time the UK has before it is kicked out. He has not got a clue how to lead anything never mind government. Does not want to change the FPTP system. The man is a mess and no socialist.
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:28 am

I accept that you're entitled to your opinion on Corbyn, but he's speaking to a lot of people at the moment, and many of them think that the fact that he voted against his own party whip (which is less than 500x to be sure) marks him out as someone with principles. What his decryers are not so keen to do is discuss the context, content, or merits of those principles. I'm not saying he's the new Messiah - but I'm not saying he's a very naughty boy either.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:35 am

Boris Johnson: I won't quit over Theresa May's Brexit speech

Boris Johnson has insisted he will not be resigning from the cabinet over Brexit but said he hoped the prime minister would avoid hitching the UK too closely to the European Union after its departure.

In an interview with the Guardian in New York, the man who last year fronted the Vote Leave campaign said it was about time people heard what he had to say on Brexit and played down reports that he might quit this weekend.

“I am mystified by all this stuff,” Johnson said. “Not me, guv. I don’t know where it is coming from, honestly. It feels to me like an attempt to keep the great snore-athon story about my article running. I think that is what is going on.” ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-speech
No, you won't quit Boris, but you'll continue to undermine your leader until May either has to fire you -- and triggering OUTRAGE among the rabid band of backbenchers you're mostly speaking for these days and among the party faithful who think you're 'one of us' -- or the party turns to you to replace her.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:39 am

Brian Peacock wrote:I accept that you're entitled to your opinion on Corbyn, but he's speaking to a lot of people at the moment, and many of them think that the fact that he voted against his own party whip (which is less than 500 to be sure) marks him out as someone with principles. What his decryers are not so keen to do is discuss the context, content, or merits of those principles. I'm not saying he's the new Messiah - but I'm not saying he's a very naughty boy either.
He seems to bend very easily for a man with principles. It is easy sitting on the back benches just shouting nay the whole time. The trouble is to come up with sensible policies for a post Brexit situation. You dont have to re-nationalise every thing. We dont have any state companies any more but what we do have is very strict inspectorates that set very high standards for these companies to operate under. The UK could easily do this instead of wasting money trying to run nationalised companies which no government was good at. The railways have never made a profit so make sure it provides a good service. The present mess is just ridiculous for a modern country. But Corbyn thinks the wonders of renationalisation will solve it and doing it in a post Brexit situation is pure madness. I wonder if he actually realises what Brexit is going to do to the UK? I dont think so.
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:50 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Boris Johnson: I won't quit over Theresa May's Brexit speech

Boris Johnson has insisted he will not be resigning from the cabinet over Brexit but said he hoped the prime minister would avoid hitching the UK too closely to the European Union after its departure.

In an interview with the Guardian in New York, the man who last year fronted the Vote Leave campaign said it was about time people heard what he had to say on Brexit and played down reports that he might quit this weekend.

“I am mystified by all this stuff,” Johnson said. “Not me, guv. I don’t know where it is coming from, honestly. It feels to me like an attempt to keep the great snore-athon story about my article running. I think that is what is going on.” ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-speech
No, you won't quit Boris, but you'll continue to undermine your leader until May either has to fire you -- and triggering OUTRAGE among the rabid band of backbenchers you're mostly speaking for these days and among the party faithful who think you're 'one of us' -- or the party turns to you to replace her.
You know Brian there is more a foot than just Boris and May. Brexit is happening and no one can stop it. Do the tory grandees have other plans? The 51st state which for any normal person would be a reason to lock up any leader suggesting it. It is not inconceivable; Maggie was very fond of the idea. Cameron did not immediately dismiss it. Stranger things have happened. The UK always retains ideas of world leadership. Could be an explanation of the lack of talks from the UK side in the Brexit meetings.
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:06 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:I accept that you're entitled to your opinion on Corbyn, but he's speaking to a lot of people at the moment, and many of them think that the fact that he voted against his own party whip (which is less than 500 to be sure) marks him out as someone with principles. What his decryers are not so keen to do is discuss the context, content, or merits of those principles. I'm not saying he's the new Messiah - but I'm not saying he's a very naughty boy either.
He seems to bend very easily for a man with principles. It is easy sitting on the back benches just shouting nay the whole time. The trouble is to come up with sensible policies for a post Brexit situation. You dont have to re-nationalise every thing. We dont have any state companies any more but what we do have is very strict inspectorates that set very high standards for these companies to operate under. The UK could easily do this instead of wasting money trying to run nationalised companies which no government was good at. The railways have never made a profit so make sure it provides a good service. The present mess is just ridiculous for a modern country. But Corbyn thinks the wonders of renationalisation will solve it and doing it in a post Brexit situation is pure madness. I wonder if he actually realises what Brexit is going to do to the UK? I dont think so.
Perhaps you're right about the merits of nationalisation -- although the only rail franchise to lower its costs, turn a profit, and top the service rating recently was the East Coast line taken into pubic ownership by the Cameron government to save it from complete collapse. Still, we're still talking about Corbyn in the Tory thread in terms of some drive to nationalise everything and collectivise your granny. As I said earlier, this is the context of Tory politics at the moment - Corbyn and Brexit - and while febrile ranting and opinionating on either subject is cheap it's no substitute for serious discussion about difficult decisions is it?

The single biggest obstacle to social, economic and political progress in Britain today is not the paucity of talent or the fickle winds of international money manipulators, but the constitution. We don't have one, and every party that has come to power since the war has treated it like a free lunch for them and their friends - the Tories have just taken it further and become far more blasé and blatant about it. At least Corbyn doesn't have any friends!
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Boris Johnson: I won't quit over Theresa May's Brexit speech

Boris Johnson has insisted he will not be resigning from the cabinet over Brexit but said he hoped the prime minister would avoid hitching the UK too closely to the European Union after its departure.

In an interview with the Guardian in New York, the man who last year fronted the Vote Leave campaign said it was about time people heard what he had to say on Brexit and played down reports that he might quit this weekend.

“I am mystified by all this stuff,” Johnson said. “Not me, guv. I don’t know where it is coming from, honestly. It feels to me like an attempt to keep the great snore-athon story about my article running. I think that is what is going on.” ...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... xit-speech
No, you won't quit Boris, but you'll continue to undermine your leader until May either has to fire you -- and triggering OUTRAGE among the rabid band of backbenchers you're mostly speaking for these days and among the party faithful who think you're 'one of us' -- or the party turns to you to replace her.
You know Brian there is more a foot than just Boris and May. Brexit is happening and no one can stop it. Do the tory grandees have other plans? The 51st state which for any normal person would be a reason to lock up any leader suggesting it. It is not inconceivable; Maggie was very fond of the idea. Cameron did not immediately dismiss it. Stranger things have happened. The UK always retains ideas of world leadership. Could be an explanation of the lack of talks from the UK side in the Brexit meetings.
That's your inner Galaxian talking. Don't listen to him.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by mistermack » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:26 am

Well, I'm not so confident of anything any more. But even so, people are ignoring the fact that Corbyn LOST the general election, and so, you can say the title of this thread is only three years out. That is, if the Tories lose the next one. Which isn't a given.
Five years is a very long time, and Labour COULD have won the last election, with a more credible leadership.

I know that history doesn't prove anything, but the last Labour leader to win a working majority in the UK was Harold Wilson in October 1974.
That is, if you don't count NEW Labour, which Corbyn and Co don't resemble in the slightest.

And Harold Wilson's majority was 3.

Taking into account the fact that Corbyn and Co are miles to the left of Wilson and Co, history would seem to be saying it can't be done.

But of course, you would have said that about Donald Trump not long ago.
I think social media IS changing things. Making them more unpredictable.

From an academic point of view, even if Corbyn did win the next election, it's not going to change MY life in any way. It would be a major fuck-up, and if I was 18 I'd be worried. As it is, it would just provide amusement for a while, and it's today's young who would end up paying the bill.

I will enjoy seeing how Corbyn deals with pay claims in the public sector. And private sector. And how much he borrows. And how much interest he will have to pay on it. And how he tries to shift the blame for all of it.
Like I said, it won't affect me in the slightest.

Edit:
I would actually vote for the cunt, if he promised to abolish the monarchy, which he should, as a true socialist.
Can you imagine him kissing Charlie's hand, and swearing allegiance?
I want it on video. :funny:
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by Scot Dutchy » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:39 am

I entirely agree about the Brexit discussion as there is not one. No one wants to talk about the elephant in the room. The constitution and not having one has suited everyone that has been in power. Like FPTP which is why nothing is ever done about it. The tories are very blasé about it as they will be the least affected by any collapse.

Everyone has an inner Galaxian. I listen to mine often but I dont act on what he says. What is the reason for May and co to act the way they do? The UK in the Brexit talks (they are not negotiations) has been a complete shambles but why. If they were serious surely some one could have come up with some form of organisation? Do they have some sort of last minute safety net in view? Returning to the EU is out for the conceivable future. The UK does not even reach the requirements of entry. No requirements needed to join the USA. I know is as daft as anything going around today but if you can find a reason for the apathy and total disorganisation I will be glad to hear it.
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Re: Britain is going to be Tory for at least 10 years.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:59 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:I accept that you're entitled to your opinion on Corbyn, but he's speaking to a lot of people at the moment, and many of them think that the fact that he voted against his own party whip (which is less than 500 to be sure) marks him out as someone with principles. What his decryers are not so keen to do is discuss the context, content, or merits of those principles. I'm not saying he's the new Messiah - but I'm not saying he's a very naughty boy either.
He seems to bend very easily for a man with principles. It is easy sitting on the back benches just shouting nay the whole time. The trouble is to come up with sensible policies for a post Brexit situation. You dont have to re-nationalise every thing. We dont have any state companies any more but what we do have is very strict inspectorates that set very high standards for these companies to operate under. The UK could easily do this instead of wasting money trying to run nationalised companies which no government was good at. The railways have never made a profit so make sure it provides a good service. The present mess is just ridiculous for a modern country. But Corbyn thinks the wonders of renationalisation will solve it and doing it in a post Brexit situation is pure madness. I wonder if he actually realises what Brexit is going to do to the UK? I dont think so.
Perhaps you're right about the merits of nationalisation -- although the only rail franchise to lower its costs, turn a profit, and top the service rating recently was the East Coast line taken into pubic ownership by the Cameron government
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