Ban all genital mutilation of children

[pErvinalia]

Forty Two wrote:

Likewise, cutting off a bit of foreskin is very different than cutting off a clitoris. So, if we are discussing material differences, there is one right there.

I agree that there is a significant difference, enough so that society is totally justified in banning female genital mutilation, and that circumcision be left up to parents to decide. Having said that, the zeitgeist on that issue is moving, and it is less common than it was, possibly for good reason.

If there is no significant medical benefit to male circumcision, then it should be banned. Cosmetic surgery on babies is obscene.

[JimC]

I suspect that a survey would show an overwhelming majority in favour of retaining a ban on female genital mutilation, whereas it might be 50-50 on male circumcision (accepting that those in favour are probably a slowly dwindling %)

I know that public opinion is not the be-all and end-all of decision making on policies which make certain things illegal, but societal rules and laws are generally wise to follow the zeitgeist...

[pErvinalia]

When you are talking about obvious morally objectionable things, then public opinion shouldn't really matter. It's the same with the gay marriage issue and the discrimination against them. Moral questions of fairness and justice shouldn't require the public to get their shit together first (although, in the case of gay marriage the public is heavily in support of it). Government is either for fairness/justice/body-autonomy/etc or they aren't.

[laklak]

The sharpest thing I want near my willy is teeth.

[pErvinalia]

[pErvinalia]

By the way, a new world of porn was just opened up to me. Try typing simply "grandma false teeth" into image search with safe search turned off.

[JimC]

When you are talking about obvious morally objectionable things, then public opinion shouldn't really matter. It's the same with the gay marriage issue and the discrimination against them. Moral questions of fairness and justice shouldn't require the public to get their shit together first (although, in the case of gay marriage the public is heavily in support of it). Government is either for fairness/justice/body-autonomy/etc or they aren't.

My point is more that the difference in most people's reactions does reflect something objective, IMO, in that female genital mutilation is a more horrendous act than male circumcision.

However, this in itself doesn't mean that male circumcision shouldn't be banned, although the political reality means that this is not something that will happen anytime soon.

[Brian Peacock]

The thing with 'obvious morally objectionable things' is that views differ as to what is morally objectionable, thus bringing the obviousness of the objection into moral dispute.

[JimC]

The thing with 'obvious morally objectionable things' is that views differ as to what is morally objectionable, thus bringing the obviousness of the objection into moral dispute.

However, in this case, the damage to the female infant is much more serious, if for only the reason that it typically disallows orgasm (as well as being much more damaging to the genital tissues overall). This is an objective assessment, rather than a moral judgement.

Circumcision does not have that effect, as I can personally attest...

[Brian Peacock]

All I'm saying is that moral arguments have to be made rather than assumed.

[Animavore]

The lengths people go to to defend child abuse. So far we've had -

The amount that die is only a tiny percent (try imagine being a husband for circumcision explaining to a mother whose first son bled out that as it only happens to a tiny percent the chances of it happening again are next to nothing).

It's not as painful as another form of child abuse (that's like saying beating children isn't as bad as raping them, so let's just focus on the latter for now).

Women might not find it attractive ( that argument can simply be reversed).

It's culture (so was burning witches, foot binding, filing teeth still exists, as do bullet ant gauntlets).

Everyone else is doing it (lol).

[JimC]

Ani, there is an argument to be made that male circumcision is the wrong thing to do, and you and rEv are making it. Fair enough, and I won't be surprised if the zeitgeist in civilised societies moves in that direction, but don't be surprised if it takes a while.

My main point is that, in making the argument, don't make the absurd statement that male circumcision and female genital mutilation are equally destructive.

[Animavore]

I'm not and haven't made that argument. Rather the argument that male circumcision is ok when compared to female has been made. That's a fallacy called the fallacy of relative privation.

[mistermack]

It's done because it's easiest to do at that age.

That's a pretty dumb statement.

That's not the reason it's done. It's done because the parents want it.

Well, sure, that too. And, parents recognize the prevalence of kids wanting earrings as they get older, and it's much easier to do it when the child is an infant than when they are 5 or even 10.

You're so full of shit.
In one post you are saying it takes a millisecond, in another you are saying it's best done when an infant, because it's much "easier".
Is a millisecond to long then, when they are 5 or 10? Absolute bollocks.

In any case, it's a question of consent.
It should be illegal, because it's unnecessary, and it's mutilation.
That goes for whether it's minor, or major.
Same as sexual interference with a child. The argument that the child didn't even notice doesn't wash.

[pErvinalia]

The thing with 'obvious morally objectionable things' is that views differ as to what is morally objectionable, thus bringing the obviousness of the objection into moral dispute.

Sure, but this can be dealt with rationally. When politicians bleat about the moral case for freedom and equality, yet don't allow gay marriage, then there is a clear contradiction there. Same with body-autonomy. Now, they don't bleat about that much, but if you asked them whether it is an important ethic that people have primary control over their bodies, most would probably agree this is important.