The Ethics of Punching Nazis
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
oh, THAT bomber, kudos to his memory
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
Indeed. If you're there to protest peacefully there's absolutely no need to cover your face unless it's well below freezing. I think anyone attending a peaceful protest who sees any sort of nit-witted hijinks like brick lobbing, firebomb chucking, window smashing, cop kicking, etc, should at least try to film it on their phone and publicly denounce the action. Then the video should be passed on to the police and the media.L'Emmerdeur wrote:It certainly will change if black bloc bozos start getting involved, with their nit-witted hijinks.pErvin wrote:The state will almost certainly resort to violence and/or repression as a last means (and sometimes even a first means). If those women's protests keep happening, then I suspect the situation would change.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
How so?Hermit wrote:It's more than a little ironic that you should say that.Forty Two wrote:I think what happens a lot is those on the left are more and more categorizing...
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
No, certainly not. If Tea Partiers behaved like the people in Berkely or started "punching commies" and declaring that it was a moral imperative to do so, then I would be voicing the same view as to them.Brian Peacock wrote:It's all one way traffic with you 42 - it's got to be the failing of The Leftists or nothing at all.
Not at all. I'm discussing the issue of punching Nazis here. The meta-issue of whether the Leftists are the "good guys" or whether the "rightists" are "worse guys" is irrelevant to the issue here. I despise fascism and totalitarian ideologies of any kind. However, I don't agree that being opposed to them makes it a moral imperative to punch people who someone thinks is a fascist because it serves some higher purpose.Brian Peacock wrote: Conservative and right-leaning governments are in power in most democratic nations, yet all you seem interested in is the presumed threat of the The Leftist.
Why are you? I never hear you - not once - taking on the extremists on the Left. Have you? Where?Brian Peacock wrote:
As I was trying to point out, there are extremists on both ends of th bell curve, so why are you so preoccupied with the extremists on one side to the obvious exclusion of extremists on the other - indeed, why do you seemingly keep raising the spectre of The Leftists to avoid talking about the failings and politics of The Rightists like Milo and Bannon?
Why do I "raise the spectre of the leftists?" Because more and more lately I see folks on the left justifying violence against those they deem fascists and even those they declare are "carrying water" for fascists. I don't hear people on the right saying that leftist speakers should be banned from speaking at college campuses and other venues. I don't see them "shuttin gdown" speaking events. I don't see them breaking window and assaulting people in "protests." Do you?
I hate hard-left politics and ideologies - I think communism is awful, and I am really opposed to the notion that it is some sort of "ideal" that we should strive for, but only fails to the issue of human frailty and the selfishness of human beings. I hear all too often people saying that communism would be a good idea, but it just isn't practical or workable in the real world. Not to me, it isn't. To me, it's a horrible idea that is an insult to human dignity, and if it's never been successfully implemented, we have dodged a bullet. I think Marxism and Marxist ideologies are likewise insults to human dignity, and inherently oppressive.
Similarly, I loathe Nazism, fascism, and other anti-communist totalitarian and authoritarian ideologies. I find them to be loathesome and insults to human dignity too.
The difference is, I see loads of people championing communism, socialism, Marxism and such, and I hardly see anyone espousing the merits of actual Nazism, fascism, etc. I see a lot of people on the left declaring people like Milo Yiannopoulos to be Nazis, but Milo is clearly not a Nazi. And, that's the problem at the moment. The left wants to label anyone on the right as "Nazis."
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
So you're not blind to the same fascist inclinations from the right?
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
Forty Two wrote:
Why are you? I never hear you - not once - taking on the extremists on the Left. Have you? Where?
Brian Peacock wrote: Indeed. If you're there to protest peacefully there's absolutely no need to cover your face unless it's well below freezing. I think anyone attending a peaceful protest who sees any sort of nit-witted hijinks like brick lobbing, firebomb chucking, window smashing, cop kicking, etc, should at least try to film it on their phone and publicly denounce the action. Then the video should be passed on to the police and the media.

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
That's right - I don't have to denounce Lefty political violence because my views on political violence, and the use thereof, are not dependant on who's committing it. And although my general political stance might be categorised as moderate-left, I'm not committed (ideologically or otherwise) to defending so-called Leftists any more than denouncing so-called Rightists - I reserve the right to hold any opinion on any political question regardless of where it is supposed to sit on the political spectrum. So you won't see me decrying political protests on the basis of them being Leftist or Rightist, but you will see me criticising people who turn up at a protest looking for a rumble - whether that's protesters or law enforcers.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
So some on the left call Milo Yiannopoulos a Nazi, and that's a problem according to you. No problem with Milo Yiannopoulos's own rhetoric?Forty Two wrote:I see a lot of people on the left declaring people like Milo Yiannopoulos to be Nazis, but Milo is clearly not a Nazi. And, that's the problem at the moment. The left wants to label anyone on the right as "Nazis."
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
I'm not blind to various totalitarian ideologies that are on the right. If what you're suggesting is that people who are moderately right of center have fascist inclinations because they are from the right, then no. I also do not view folks who are moderately left of center or liberal to have communist inclinations.Brian Peacock wrote:So you're not blind to the same fascist inclinations from the right?
That doesn't change the fact that I'm seeing a big waive of so-called progressives and SJW types suggesting that punching people for what they believe or say, because they are deemed or labeled Nazis or fascists, is a good thing. It's really bizarre, even if the target of the punching is, in fact, a self-avowed Nazi. What makes it even more surreal is that there are so many people championing the assault and battery of people labeled Nazi or fascist, but who arguably don't fit that label and/or deny being those things.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
I've denounced right leaning politics many times, and that should be clear by my posts. I've excoriated guys like Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Huckabee, and various other Republican candidates who were definitely considered right wing. I think the only Republican I have at all supported here has been Trump. I likely had some good things to say about Ron Paul, on occasion, but he's a bit wacky, and I remember being not completely nauseated by Kasich and Jon Huntsman seemed o.k. a few years back.Brian Peacock wrote:That's right - I don't have to denounce Lefty political violence because my views on political violence, and the use thereof, are not dependant on who's committing it. And although my general political stance might be categorised as moderate-left, I'm not committed (ideologically or otherwise) to defending so-called Leftists any more than denouncing so-called Rightists - I reserve the right to hold any opinion on any political question regardless of where it is supposed to sit on the political spectrum. So you won't see me decrying political protests on the basis of them being Leftist or Rightist, but you will see me criticising people who turn up at a protest looking for a rumble - whether that's protesters or law enforcers.
I also denounce all political violence and my views thereon are not dependent on whose committing it.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
No, the labeling or calling him a Nazi is not a problem for me, other than it being dishonest and inaccurate. But, that's solved by argument and debate.L'Emmerdeur wrote:So some on the left call Milo Yiannopoulos a Nazi, and that's a problem according to you. No problem with Milo Yiannopoulos's own rhetoric?Forty Two wrote:I see a lot of people on the left declaring people like Milo Yiannopoulos to be Nazis, but Milo is clearly not a Nazi. And, that's the problem at the moment. The left wants to label anyone on the right as "Nazis."
The problem with the labeling, to me, is when it is used to justify violence and shutting him down from speaking. Even if he was espousing actual Nazi or fascist views, violence and shutting down of his talks would not be justified or even "good." The fact that he's unfairly labeled a Nazi or fascist and then that inaccurate label is used to justify riots against him makes it even worse.
I may have lots of "problems" in the sense of disagreement with his rhetoric, but that's no justification for violence, riots or bans from publicly funded college campuses, etc.
And, just out of curiosity, what rhetoric are you referring to specifically? What has he said that you would consider the or a "problem?"
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
Out of curiosity, what rhetoric are you referring to specifically?
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
I wasn't referring to anything specifically. I was noting that I "may" have disagreements with his rhetoric, but that such disagreements are not justification for violence or shutting down his events.
L'Emmerdeur suggested I had a problem with him being called a Nazi and asked "no problem with Yiannopoulus' own rhetoric?" - so, my question is "what rhetoric?" - in terms of what rhetoric would justify calling him a Nazi?
I have never suggested that there was any "problem" (other than my disagreement with the assertion) with calling him a Nazi. Call him whatever you want.
L'Emmerdeur suggested I had a problem with him being called a Nazi and asked "no problem with Yiannopoulus' own rhetoric?" - so, my question is "what rhetoric?" - in terms of what rhetoric would justify calling him a Nazi?
I have never suggested that there was any "problem" (other than my disagreement with the assertion) with calling him a Nazi. Call him whatever you want.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
I'm interested to know what of his speech you consider rhetoric. I thought you wanted to have butsecs with him or something... 

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis
What are you blathering about? Rhetoric is any speech which is intended to persuade - rhetoric is the art of persuasion. Anything he says that is an argument or intended to make a point is his rhetoric. Are you unsure what rhetoric is?
Again, I was asking L'Emmerdeur to explain what of his rhetoric she was referring to.
Again, I was asking L'Emmerdeur to explain what of his rhetoric she was referring to.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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