The Ethics of Punching Nazis

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:32 am

DaveDodo007 wrote:
pErvin wrote:The fascists and the conservative state are already violent. We literally have nothing to lose by punching these cunts.
Interesting claim, have you any evidence to back this up?
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:21 am

pErvin wrote:The fascists and the conservative state are already violent. We literally have nothing to lose by punching these cunts.
Nah. Agreeing with the adoption of violence as a political tactic serves to legitimize the violence of repressive governments and political thugs in general. Black bloc tactics give cover for violent repression of peaceful protest.

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:43 am

Violent repression happens anyway regardless of what tactics protesters adopt.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:45 am

Having said that, it's not even necessarily a body politic issue. In this case it's about individuals taking a stand against reprehensible individuals.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:36 pm

pErvin wrote:Violent repression happens anyway regardless of what tactics protesters adopt.
Violent expression, resistance, first needs some repressive agent to expressive yourself about and against. Otherwise you're just a guy looking for a punch-up.

You know what many blokes are like don't you(?), strutting peacocks imagining scenarios where they can be the hero of the hour and adored by the few and by the many? Nazis are souped up peacocks with far slacker morals than your average bloke, they aren't in politics for the good but for the vindication; the adoration--however forced--that flows from the power, the control, and the fear they can inspire. For Nazis politics is just a disposable ladder to elevated status, and access to chicks - some Nazis are just nicer about it than others.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:19 pm

pErvin wrote:Violent repression happens anyway regardless of what tactics protesters adopt.
It can work that way, but it is not the norm in peaceful democratic nations. The Women's March was overwhelmingly peaceful, for instance, and I'm unaware of any violent police response to it. ("Not a Single Arrest in Massive D.C. Women's March") However, when protesters engage in violence they elicit a violent response, and the government will have no problem justifying that reactive violence.
pErvin wrote:Having said that, it's not even necessarily a body politic issue. In this case it's about individuals taking a stand against reprehensible individuals.
Do you actually believe that when a person finds somebody else reprehensible they are justified in taking violent aggressive action, even when the victim of that aggression has not advocated violence, let alone engaged in it?

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by laklak » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:17 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:However, when protesters engage in violence they elicit a violent response, and the government will have no problem justifying that reactive violence.
Precisely. Kent State is a perfect example. As was Chicago '68, Selma, and any number of other protests that were met with fire hoses and attack dogs, whether violent OR peaceful. You piss them off enough and they'll start shooting. If you don't think the Trumpster will call out the National Guard then you're living in a dream world.

We're in for a rough ride. My plan is to keep a low a profile and let somebody else take the rubber bullets. I'm too old for that shit.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 13, 2017 12:05 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
pErvin wrote:Violent repression happens anyway regardless of what tactics protesters adopt.
It can work that way, but it is not the norm in peaceful democratic nations. The Women's March was overwhelmingly peaceful, for instance, and I'm unaware of any violent police response to it. ("Not a Single Arrest in Massive D.C. Women's March") However, when protesters engage in violence they elicit a violent response, and the government will have no problem justifying that reactive violence.
The state will almost certainly resort to violence and/or repression as a last means (and sometimes even a first means). If those women's protests keep happening, then I suspect the situation would change.
pErvin wrote:Having said that, it's not even necessarily a body politic issue. In this case it's about individuals taking a stand against reprehensible individuals.
Do you actually believe that when a person finds somebody else reprehensible they are justified in taking violent aggressive action, even when the victim of that aggression has not advocated violence, let alone engaged in it?
It depends on what you mean by "justified". Legally, no. Ethically, perhaps. Ultimately we are all responsible for any "evils" we walk past and ignore. It's up to individuals to decide whether their ethics justify them punching (or otherwise) other people.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:16 am

pErvin wrote:The state will almost certainly resort to violence and/or repression as a last means (and sometimes even a first means). If those women's protests keep happening, then I suspect the situation would change.
It certainly will change if black bloc bozos start getting involved, with their nit-witted hijinks.
pErvin wrote:
L'Emmerdeur wrote:Do you actually believe that when a person finds somebody else reprehensible they are justified in taking violent aggressive action, even when the victim of that aggression has not advocated violence, let alone engaged in it?
It depends on what you mean by "justified". Legally, no. Ethically, perhaps. Ultimately we are all responsible for any "evils" we walk past and ignore. It's up to individuals to decide whether their ethics justify them punching (or otherwise) other people.
I agree that person is always responsible for their own ethical choices. However, the choice of responses to a perceived evil like the white supremacist Spencer encompasses more than just "walk past and ignore" versus "punch that smug, vile asshole."

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:26 am

Fart in his general direction, and tell him his mother smelled of elderberries?
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:16 am

A kick in the balls would seem reasonable. Less likely to accidentally kill someone that way.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:21 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
pErvin wrote:The state will almost certainly resort to violence and/or repression as a last means (and sometimes even a first means). If those women's protests keep happening, then I suspect the situation would change.
It certainly will change if black bloc bozos start getting involved, with their nit-witted hijinks.
As it will even if they don't. Look at the Occupy movement. Pretty much 100% peaceful. But the state couldn't allow the protests to continue indefinitely. They ended up resorting to counter-intelligence and infiltration, changing protest laws, and in a lot of cases violence to end the protest. The same thing would happen if these pesky women start becoming more than an inconvenient side show.
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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:48 am

pErvin wrote:
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
pErvin wrote:The state will almost certainly resort to violence and/or repression as a last means (and sometimes even a first means). If those women's protests keep happening, then I suspect the situation would change.
It certainly will change if black bloc bozos start getting involved, with their nit-witted hijinks.
As it will even if they don't. Look at the Occupy movement. Pretty much 100% peaceful. But the state couldn't allow the protests to continue indefinitely. They ended up resorting to counter-intelligence and infiltration, changing protest laws, and in a lot of cases violence to end the protest. The same thing would happen if these pesky women start becoming more than an inconvenient side show.
Even so, the answer to government violence isn't citizen violence. Down that path lies the asinine madness of the "2nd Amendment solution" dipshits. Pretty much any step in that direction is a fool's errand.

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Svartalf » Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:53 am

JimC wrote:Fart in his general direction, and tell him his mother smelled of elderberries?
                      

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Re: The Ethics of Punching Nazis

Post by Hermit » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:03 am

Svartalf wrote:Wer ist das?
Georg Elser. He constructed a bomb and placed it in the Bürgerbräukeller where Adolf Hitler, accompanied by Joseph Goebbels, Reinhard Heydrich, Rudolf Hess, Robert Ley, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Streicher, August Frank, Hermann Esser and Heinrich Himmler, was going to make a speech on 8th of November 1939. Hitler and his entourage left an hour earlier than scheduled. The bomb went off 13 minutes after their departure, killing seven party faithfuls and injuring another 63 instead. Along with Canaris, Bonhoeffer and several other Nazi resistors Elser was executed in Dachau a month before the end of WWII.

A plaque in Königsbronn, the village he spent most of his childhood in, quotes him as telling the Gestapo during one of his interrogations "I wanted to prevent even greater bloodshed through my deed."
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