Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
I don't give a shit about the economics or the knock ons or whatever, we should go back to the fucking moon because it's cool as shit and we fucking can. I watched 11 launch from my backyard, I watched Neil jump down that last step on live TV. My mates growing up were the kids of the Apollo program engineers, we ate, drank, and breathed HASA. Go back to the moon? Fuck yeah! Just goddamn DO IT and stop fucking around.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
There is no moon. It's a hologram.
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
Actually it's all dark.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
Crumple wrote:Velcro and Teflon...these things come in three's though so what is next? I'll tell you what is next. Choon, that's right Choon. The cheese made on the moon is gonna be the most delicious cheese you'll ever taste.
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
But that was an Obama stimulus, an Obamalus... that's right, Obamalus ... you know what I mean right... you know... yeah, you know... therefore it must have been a bad stimulus - the worse stimulus... so bad... a terrible deal for America - and Obama was the worse president in history... totally overrated.. and that's why Obama, and Hillary of course... don't forget about Hillary, that nasty woman... so nasty.. can be used to justify whatever Trump does, and will do... which will be totally great... the best... the best deal for America, because Trump is a winner who always wins bigly ... always... for the rest of time.L'Emmerdeur wrote:...
Your source is from 2009, the same year that the stimulus was first applied. The economy was just barely beginning to recover. Perhaps you're aware of the fact that national economies may turn on a dime when things go bad, but recoveries don't work the same way. The source I cited was updated just days ago, and examines the overall effect of the stimulus from a historical perspective. It isn't cheerleading for Obama; it points out both the shortcomings and the successes of the stimulus package. It makes clear that your "flushed down the toilet" assertion is simplistic and wildly inaccurate.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
It's from 2009, because that's when about 1/2 the money was spent. The programs didn't change, or get better, in 2014.Brian Peacock wrote:But that was an Obama stimulus, an Obamalus... that's right, Obamalus ... you know what I mean right... you know... yeah, you know... therefore it must have been a bad stimulus - the worse stimulus... so bad... a terrible deal for America - and Obama was the worse president in history... totally overrated.. and that's why Obama, and Hillary of course... don't forget about Hillary, that nasty woman... so nasty.. can be used to justify whatever Trump does, and will do... which will be totally great... the best... the best deal for America, because Trump is a winner who always wins bigly ... always... for the rest of time.L'Emmerdeur wrote:...
Your source is from 2009, the same year that the stimulus was first applied. The economy was just barely beginning to recover. Perhaps you're aware of the fact that national economies may turn on a dime when things go bad, but recoveries don't work the same way. The source I cited was updated just days ago, and examines the overall effect of the stimulus from a historical perspective. It isn't cheerleading for Obama; it points out both the shortcomings and the successes of the stimulus package. It makes clear that your "flushed down the toilet" assertion is simplistic and wildly inaccurate.
I don't care how anyone "rates" Obama. The Stimulus was a waste of money, compared to what else it could have been spent on.
We don't know what Trump will do or won't do or whether it will be great. He's been President for two weeks. When he spends a trillion dollars on nonsense, I'll criticize him too.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
You want me to link to posts here from 2008 and earlier? You realize it's 2017, right?L'Emmerdeur wrote:OK then, show me where you decried the horrible waste of lives and money that resulted from the war in Iraq in comparison to the much more productive option of funding a project to get back to the Moon. You were happy to point a finger at Obama's stimulus package, but silly me, I seem unable to find any reference at all by you to the Iraq war.Forty Two wrote:I don't ignore that.L'Emmerdeur wrote:Forty Two wrote:We had a trillion dollars that we flushed down the toilet in 2009 for "stimulus."OK, bleat about the stimulus package that actually helped Americans, but ignore the bullshit war that cost more than twice as much in dollars while resulting in the death of thousands of Americans, their allies and Iraqis.
What does criticism of the Iraq war by me have to do with the merits of the space program as an ideal stimulus package anyway? Are you going to change your mind if I show you posts by me resoundingly stating the Iraq war was big waste of money?
If the debate is for you to attack me as a hypocrite - then take it as read. Assume, without admitting, that I'm a hypocrite because I supported the Iraq war. Now, how does that in any way impact the point I made, about it being a better stimulus program to have expanded NASA and finished Constellation and the moon base, etc.?
I'm not arguing for or against a team here - you are. You would probably, I am willing to bet, be four square in favor of a massive moon mission, if it was Obama suggesting it. I would support it no matter who suggested it. But, that's just hypocritical old me for you.
Fuck, we don't even know IF Trump is going to do it. I hope he does. If he doesn't, i'm going to call him shortsighted and another in a long line of mistakes, holding us back from space exploration greatness. He has a chance to be great on the issue of space exploration - I want him to do it.
My links support that, because the projects were not quality projects, to put it mildly.L'Emmerdeur wrote:Whether or not any of that is true, and some of it may be, it doesn't support your claim that the stimulus was money that was "flushed down the toilet."Forty Two wrote:The fact that we also wasted hundreds of billions on a war doesn't change the fact that a moon base and lunar exploration technology, with a view toward branching out to Mars, would have been a far better use of funds than most of the Stimulus package. The scientific advancement would have been fantastic, the spirit and morale boost for the country would have been incredible, and the boost to STEM education among the youth would have been exponential. More engineers, physicists, designers, developers, materials scientists, and the hundreds of thousands of folks that would have been need for support personnel and support industries would have been immense, and it would have produced something.
And, I pointed out to you that not only do we get the direct jobs of scientists, engineers, etc., but the programs boost support industries, which are very often the small businesses you are referring to.L'Emmerdeur wrote:Your simplistic formula "funding industries is what creates jobs" is not an accurate nor realistic description of how jobs are created. The reality is much more complex than that.Forty Two wrote:You don't have to pay extended unemployment benefits to people with jobs. Funding industries is what provides jobs.
My position was that a far better stimulus would have been putting the money in significant projects, like an expanded NASA and Moon and Mars programs. I pointed out that a ton of the Stimulus money was spent on bullshit, and it was. If you agree with me that the missions I've called for supporting are a good idea, then we agree on this anyway. I really don't give a flying fuck if you think the stimulus projects were ideal uses of funds, or not. People are entitled to different opinions - you think the things they spent money on was great - fine - bailing out major financial institutions because they're too big to fail? Support it all you want. Spend federal money renovating an old shed, or running a sidewalk to a ditch, or building a Senator's pet project airport where it isn't needed? Support that all you want. I don't. Whether I supported one war or another has nothing to do with that.L'Emmerdeur wrote:Are you unable to support your own argument? It's not up to me to "check out" your assertion. I've defended the NASA space program myself, and I agree that it was good for the country both economically and in other ways. It seems likely to me that pushing a new project to go to the Moon would have been a good thing, but that doesn't mean that the stimulus package was the wrong decision.Forty Two wrote:Creating a market creates jobs. Check out how many support industries survived off of the space race in the 50s and 60s.
You just don't want to recognize the truth, because you're too emotionally invested, IMO: http://www.investors.com/politics/comme ... ry-at-all/ and http://www.compete.org/storage/reports/ ... 120516.pdfL'Emmerdeur wrote:Your source is from 2009, the same year that the stimulus was first applied. The economy was just barely beginning to recover. Perhaps you're aware of the fact that national economies may turn on a dime when things go bad, but recoveries don't work the same way. The source I cited was updated just days ago, and examines the overall effect of the stimulus from a historical perspective. It isn't cheerleading for Obama; it points out both the shortcomings and the successes of the stimulus package. It makes clear that your "flushed down the toilet" assertion is simplistic and wildly inaccurate.Forty Two wrote:Data shows that the Stimulus Package was a waste of money: http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/pet ... e-of-moneyIt is not just that the $789 billion package has not had the effect the White House promised it would; it's that it may actually have been counterproductive, actually lengthening the recession by effectively taking money out of the private economy, where it could have been used to create jobs and for investment purposes. Instead it has been parceled out by the government, which has been unable to track where it has gone or what impact it has really had on job creation. And that has led to any number of fallacious statements by senior administration officials about jobs "created or saved."

“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
I'm generally in favour of space programs (preferably multi-national and not driven by national rivalries), but I question whether "back to the moon" is a sensible use of limited funds. If you want to prepare for further manned missions around the solar system, why head down another gravity well?
Build something impressive at one of the Lagrange points, and mine asteroids or comets for raw materials...
Build something impressive at one of the Lagrange points, and mine asteroids or comets for raw materials...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!
And my gin!
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
Asteroids are nasty.... so overrated.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
The moon is a test bed. Better to set up a permanent manned station on the moon, which is only days or weeks away, than on Mars where no help can be had for months. So many technologies could be tested and refined there without the more extreme risk associated with Mars. Imagine what we would learn from a lunar observatory, for example.
I say just fucking do it, man.
I say just fucking do it, man.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
Just build a space elevator first
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
Space elevator is awesome.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
Indeed. It was on my party's platform when we ran for the European Parliament.
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
I spent my teenage years on the Space Coast during the Apollo program. The place was booming, man. Lots of very high paid jobs for engineers, rocket scientists and the like. Plus all the ancillary industries from small parts manufacturers to restaurants to car mechanics. When the program stopped it was like the Great Depression. I remember our neighbor, an engineer who worked on the steering systems for the booster motors, begging my Dad for a job as a surveyor. He ended up hanging himself in his garage, poor sod, couldn't get a job anywhere. My best mate's Dad was an electrical engineer, he ended up working in a sandwich shop and drinking himself to death. A new space program is money far, far, far better spent than practically anything else I can think of.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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Re: Yeah, Baby! Back to the Moon!
I seem to remember someone saying that every $1 spent on the space program generated $8 for the economy. If undertaken co-operatively scientific endeavours like space exploration can help foster and cement friendly relations between states - remember when the US astronauts went for tea in the Russian capsule? That image of the our planet from orbit, the 'pale blue dot' as Sagan called it, really did give us a different perspective on things - we really are all basically the same. The combined application of science and engineering has got to have wider benefits economically and socially, how could it not - the internet was based on work undertaken at NASA. It's bloody exciting stuff those of a nerdy disposition, and an active space program is going to inspire a whole new generation of nerds to new nerdy heights. Basically, just bloody get on with it!
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Details on how to do that can be found here.
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"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."
Frank Zappa
"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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