Will you accept the election results?

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:32 pm

pErvin wrote:Reported. Show where I said I support this report, or fuck off.
If you don't accept it, then we're in agreement, so what in the fucking hell are you on about. I don't believe it, and if you don't accept it, then you apparently don't believe it either. I don't accept it either. I don't support it.

So, where, exactly, is our disagreement?

I've said many times - I don't take the allegations on faith, and they haven't presented convincing evidence to support the allegations. You took issue with that, apparently, because you kept telling me I was creating conspiracy theories. You asked "why would they lie?" And, I answered that I don't know what their motives are, or even if they're "lying" per se, as opposed to merely being wrong. And, you still took issue with that.

So, for someone who says they never said they accept the report (I used the word "accept" -- support is a bit different than "accept"), you sure have been taking significant issue with my position -- which is that I don't accept the report (on faith), pending disclosure of the proof or evidence they say they have.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:45 pm

pErvin wrote:
Brian, Jim and I have all addressed this. You and 42 are wrong. If you think your conspiracy theory is right then present evidence.
Pervin, what am I wrong about?

I have not advanced any conspiracy theory - if you think I have, please link to the post or posts in which I advance a conspiracy theory.

Are you saying I am wrong about my position on the Russian allegations? My position is that I do not accept the allegations, or the truth of the CIA "assessements", on faith without persuasive evidence. Am I wrong about that? Has there been persuasive evidence that you accept? That you think should be acceptable?

Please, explain.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:04 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:Reported. Show where I said I support this report, or fuck off.
If you don't accept it, then we're in agreement, so what in the fucking hell are you on about. I don't believe it, and if you don't accept it, then you apparently don't believe it either. I don't accept it either. I don't support it.

So, where, exactly, is our disagreement?
Read the thread. It's your reasoning for doubting it that I have been taking issue with. Whether I think the report is true or made up is irrelevant to the coherence of your argument.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:05 pm

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Brian, Jim and I have all addressed this. You and 42 are wrong. If you think your conspiracy theory is right then present evidence.
Pervin, what am I wrong about?
That the CIA is a political organisation.
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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Svartalf » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:09 pm

not so sure that the FBI, CIA, NSA and other alphabet soup agencies are as free from politics as they should.
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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:16 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Brian, Jim and I have all addressed this. You and 42 are wrong. If you think your conspiracy theory is right then present evidence.
Pervin, what am I wrong about?
That the CIA is a political organisation.
It doesn't have to be a political organization for the allegations to be incorrect.

However, I never said it was a "political organization." A political organization is any organization that involves itself in the political process, including political parties, non-governmental organizations, advocacy groups and special interest groups. I said it is influenced by politicians, like the President. The head of the CIA works for the President, as does the President's National Security Adviser. When you answer to the President, he has influence over what you do and how you act. It's like saying the military is not a political organization, but the President is Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces. He's the boss.

You're the one who brought up the issue of it not being a political organization. Why did you raise the issue? If you don't accept the report/allegations, then what relevance is the assertion "...but they're not a political organization?"
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:23 pm

Svartalf wrote:not so sure that the FBI, CIA, NSA and other alphabet soup agencies are as free from politics as they should.
There is also a difference between being "a political organization," and being subject to political influence. Prosecutors and District Attorneys are not part of political organizations, but they are most certainly subject to the influence of politics and politicians. Same with the military and the intelligence services. There are relationships and levels of accountability. When your boss is a politician, political calculations are made as to whose the best horse to support. Which side isn't going to hang you if they win the war? Which side is more likely to keep you employed? Whose hands is James Clapper's future safest?

That does not mean that I know that there was, in actual fact, some sort of political pressure brought to bear on the CIA to create a bogus report. I don't know that, and of course I can't know that. But, nevertheless, if one is asked what motive MIGHT the CIA have for putting out a questionable report that leans a given direction, one could reasonably speculate that the influence a current administration can bring to bear exists and can get people to do things.

I've been clear, though, that discounting that speculation, and even assuming complete lack of involvement of the current administration, or of Clinton supporters within the current administration, don't accept the report or the allegations at this time because there is no persuasive evidence. I don't know if there as influence, it doesn't matter right now. If evidence is brought out that is persuasive, then influence doesn't matter either. It's only if evidence is of questionable worth, and we're evaluating credibility and such, that influence question becomes relevant.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Tero » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:17 pm

It already came out. Most of FBI is Republican. The head may change under Democratic presidents.

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:34 pm

pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:Reported. Show where I said I support this report, or fuck off.
If you don't accept it, then we're in agreement, so what in the fucking hell are you on about. I don't believe it, and if you don't accept it, then you apparently don't believe it either. I don't accept it either. I don't support it.

So, where, exactly, is our disagreement?
Read the thread. It's your reasoning for doubting it that I have been taking issue with. Whether I think the report is true or made up is irrelevant to the coherence of your argument.
My reasoning, as I have explained quite clearly, is that they haven't produced persuasive evidence, and I don't take their statements on faith or without skepticism. Since that's my reasoning - that I don't believe something without evidence - what is it you disagree with?

Your tangents asking why would they lie, and debating about whether they are a political organization, are not part of my argument. Other than recognizing that they can and have lied, I haven't said anything about lies. And you brought up the issue of them being apolitical or "not a political organization," about which all I said is that they can be influenced by politicians and elected/appointed officials.

So, again, where's the disagreement. I've read the thread. You apparently have not. This is probably another time where you read the first line or two of posts, and then "can't be arsed" to read the rest. Then you go off and declare someone else wrong, without having even read most of the argument. Remember, you've done that before.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:22 pm

I've asked you directly what evidence you would find convincing, Forty Two. You apparently are unable to say, since you ignored my question. I'm inclined to think that there is no evidence you would find acceptable and convincing.

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Forty Two » Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:09 pm

L'Emmerdeur wrote:I've asked you directly what evidence you would find convincing, Forty Two. You apparently are unable to say, since you ignored my question. I'm inclined to think that there is no evidence you would find acceptable and convincing.
Incorrect, I have answered that question in previous posts. First, it's not for me to speculate what evidence might be out there that is convincing. Second, a lot depends on what the evidence is. Third, I have explained to you that the evidence could consist of direct evidence, and that evidence might include a witness who will testify as to various events - perhaps someone was involved with the hacking group, and is willing to testify against them, perhaps there is a source within the Russian government, or a spy, who will testify as to Russian government involvement, or perhaps there is a forensic expert who can testify in detail about evidence gleaned through analysis of emails, internet traffic, and other computer analysis. There may also be circumstantial evidence that together can corroborate the allegations, which would include forensic evidence itself, or it could include a myriad other established facts.

The thing with evidence is, it's case specific and there is an endless variety of witnesses, documents, analyses, calculations, reports, studies, you name it. I can't really come up with a test because first they need to bring out the evidence, and then we can evaluate its strength. A witness' testimony, for example, depends on what he's attesting to and how much personal knowledge he has. Is he recounting hearsay? Is he speculating? How specific is it? Does he have bias? Is he credible?

Let me ask you this - what "evidence" are you aware of that you do, at this time, find convincing? (if any). I think that's a more pertinent question. If you've read about some solid evidence that makes you conclude that yes, indeed, the evidence shows clearly and convincingly that the Russians hacked the DNC and took those emails, etc., then give us a description of what the evidence is and note why you find it convincing.

If you ignore that question, then I'll feel free to say that there is no evidence thus far which you have found acceptable and convincing.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:20 am

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Brian, Jim and I have all addressed this. You and 42 are wrong. If you think your conspiracy theory is right then present evidence.
Pervin, what am I wrong about?
That the CIA is a political organisation.
It doesn't have to be a political organization for the allegations to be incorrect.

However, I never said it was a "political organization." A political organization is any organization that involves itself in the political process, including political parties, non-governmental organizations, advocacy groups and special interest groups.
By political organisation I meant partisan political.
You're the one who brought up the issue of it not being a political organization. Why did you raise the issue? If you don't accept the report/allegations, then what relevance is the assertion "...but they're not a political organization?"
I was responding to your claims that it is partisan political. And, again, I haven't said anything at all about the veracity of the report and whether I accept it or not. I'm addressing your "argument".
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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:22 am

Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:
Forty Two wrote:
pErvin wrote:Reported. Show where I said I support this report, or fuck off.
If you don't accept it, then we're in agreement, so what in the fucking hell are you on about. I don't believe it, and if you don't accept it, then you apparently don't believe it either. I don't accept it either. I don't support it.

So, where, exactly, is our disagreement?
Read the thread. It's your reasoning for doubting it that I have been taking issue with. Whether I think the report is true or made up is irrelevant to the coherence of your argument.
My reasoning, as I have explained quite clearly, is that they haven't produced persuasive evidence, and I don't take their statements on faith or without skepticism. Since that's my reasoning - that I don't believe something without evidence - what is it you disagree with?
God you are tiring. I'm disagreeing with your claim that the CIA would have made it up because a Democratic Prez asked them to.
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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:35 am

I find it interesting that the contents of a classified report can be disputed on the basis that the important information it must contain is classified. Give it 30 years or so and we'll know soon enough what's what.
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Re: Will you accept the election results?

Post by JimC » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:49 am

Brian Peacock wrote:I find it interesting that the contents of a classified report can be disputed on the basis that the important information it must contain is classified. Give it 30 years or so and we'll know soon enough what's what.
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