The Hillary Thread II

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jan 03, 2017 1:24 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:First of all ,the idea that the Civil War was about "states rights" and not specifically slavery is not a controversial view. It's accurate.
...if you don't mind spin. It so happens that all the other issues you mentioned - be they economical, social or political - are inextricably and centrally linked with slavery. Not even Lincoln's letter to the editor of the New York Tribune or the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation was not published until 20 months after the civil war broke out can fudge over this.
Well, it does fudge over it a bit. Also, the fact that the Emancipation Proclamation did not free all the slaves is a bit of fudge too. The Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in states that were in open rebellion. A slave state that did not rebel, like Delaware, Missouri, Kentucky and Maryland, did not have its slaves freed by the Emancipation Proclamation. The reason Lincoln gave for the EP was that it was a military tactic, to remove resources from the Southern States. In that way, it was acceptable to unionists who were not in favor of emancipation (e.g. General George McClelland, and much of the union army).

Hermit wrote: A more balanced view would be to say that the civil war was caused primarily by the slave issue, but this issue did not morph into an emancipation of slaves issue until well after the first seven slave states had declared their secession and proclaimed their new Confederate government in February 1861.

To clarify my own position: No, I do not think that racism, sexism and bigotry were the main factors for Trump's victory. His ascension primarily comes down to the Democratic Party having abandoned the working and middle classes in favour of Wall Street. One significant turning point came when Bill Clinton deregulated the banking sector by ratifying the Financial Services Modernization Act of 1999, which effectively nixed the Glass–Steagall Act of 1933. Bill knew that he was stabbing his support base in the back, but with hubris that came back to haunt the Democrats last year he asked: "Where else can they go?" They got the answer now: The can go to some narcissistic, ignorant, megalomaniacal, psychopathic man-child whose competence lies in declaring bankrupties, grabbing them by the pussy and telling the unwashed masses what they want to hear.

That said, the neonazis, KKK members, MRAs, religious fundamentalists and just about all other reprehensible dregs of US society are practically creaming their jeans at the prospect of what the Trump presidency will enable them to do, and I think there are good reasons for their confidence.
Well, I don't agree with your statement on Trump. I think his racism is a manufactured thing. He was a very popular figure for decades, particularly in the New York metropolitan area. Very well known business man. He was never considered a racist until he ran for President against Hillary Clinton. Suddenly, he was card carrying KKK member who is getting ready to build camps and ovens as we speak.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Hermit » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:29 pm

Forty Two wrote:Well, I don't agree with your statement on Trump.
Your disagreement comes as an utterly shocking surprise to me. I always took you for a Casich supporter. :hehe:
Forty Two wrote:Very well known business man.
Well known for his numerous declarations of bankruptcies. It's a valid business strategy, but not a sign of of competence in the art of deal making. Considering the start up money he got from dad and the soft loans he got from the same source, his net worth would be a lot better than barely keeping up with what he would have achieved had he spent his life watching his assets grow after parking them in the bond market.
Forty Two wrote:I think his racism is a manufactured thing. ... He was never considered a racist until he ran for President against Hillary Clinton.
There is nothing manufactured about claiming that an Indiana born district judge has an absolute conflict of interest because of his Mexican heritage. No matter what else Trump said about Curiel, this is straight out racism.
Forty Two wrote:Suddenly, he was card carrying KKK member who is getting ready to build camps and ovens as we speak.
Thanks for the straw, man, but no, thanks. I think your horse needs it more than mine.
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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Forty Two » Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:09 pm

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Well, I don't agree with your statement on Trump.
Your disagreement comes as an utterly shocking surprise to me. I always took you for a Casich supporter. :hehe:
Well, my disagreement was with your attribution of significant and horrible racism, etc.

Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Very well known business man.
Well known for his numerous declarations of bankruptcies. It's a valid business strategy, but not a sign of of competence in the art of deal making. Considering the start up money he got from dad and the soft loans he got from the same source, his net worth would be a lot better than barely keeping up with what he would have achieved had he spent his life watching his assets grow after parking them in the bond market.
That's just nonsense. The bankruptcies are not unusual. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... -bankrupt/

Henry Ford filed bankruptcy twice (back in a day when bankruptcies were far less common).
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I think his racism is a manufactured thing. ... He was never considered a racist until he ran for President against Hillary Clinton.
There is nothing manufactured about claiming that an Indiana born district judge has an absolute conflict of interest because of his Mexican heritage. No matter what else Trump said about Curiel, this is straight out racism.
That isn't why he said Curiel would be unfair. It was the fact that Curiel was linked to La Raza.
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Suddenly, he was card carrying KKK member who is getting ready to build camps and ovens as we speak.
Thanks for the straw, man, but no, thanks. I think your horse needs it more than mine.
Well, your description of his alleged racism was nearly as over the top.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Hermit » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:42 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Very well known business man.
Well known for his numerous declarations of bankruptcies. It's a valid business strategy, but not a sign of of competence in the art of deal making. Considering the start up money he got from dad and the soft loans he got from the same source, his net worth would be a lot better than barely keeping up with what he would have achieved had he spent his life watching his assets grow after parking them in the bond market.
That's just nonsense. The bankruptcies are not unusual. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... -bankrupt/

Henry Ford filed bankruptcy twice (back in a day when bankruptcies were far less common).
No matter who declares bankruptcies or how common they are, they are business failures by definition. You can argue that Trump was not to blame for them till you're blue in the face, but turning a billion dollar investment into a three billion dollar liability in just 12 months, to pick the first example you linked to, would indicate some rather spectacular miscalculations on his part.
Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:I think his racism is a manufactured thing. ... He was never considered a racist until he ran for President against Hillary Clinton.
There is nothing manufactured about claiming that an Indiana born district judge has an absolute conflict of interest because of his Mexican heritage. No matter what else Trump said about Curiel, this is straight out racism.
That isn't why he said Curiel would be unfair.
Trump said many things about Curiel. With that I agree. You're trying to push shit up a hill trying to convince me that he did not say that the judge has an absolute conflict of interest because of his Mexican heritage. To say that about someone who was born and raised in the USA is racist.
Forty Two wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Forty Two wrote:Suddenly, he was card carrying KKK member who is getting ready to build camps and ovens as we speak.
Thanks for the straw, man, but no, thanks. I think your horse needs it more than mine.
Well, your description of his alleged racism was nearly as over the top.
Orly? As far as I am concerned I made two comments concerning racism. The first one was that "the neonazis, KKK members, MRAs, religious fundamentalists and just about all other reprehensible dregs of US society are practically creaming their jeans at the prospect of what the Trump presidency will enable them to do, and I think there are good reasons for their confidence." The second one, that "There is nothing manufactured about claiming that an Indiana born district judge has an absolute conflict of interest because of his Mexican heritage. No matter what else Trump said about Curiel, this is straight out racism." Now, without putting words in my mouth or resorting to one of your favourite techniques - constructing strawmen - demonstrate how this is nearly as over the top as saying "Trump is a card carrying KKK member who is getting ready to build camps and ovens as we speak."
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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:51 pm

Forty Two wrote:L'Emmerdeur - I don't disagree with your recitation above, generally speaking. I've not suggested slavery wasn't an issue. I've not suggested it wasn't a major issue. I took issue with the absolutist statement in the article under discussion.
Slavery was the major issue, and secession happened because the South believed that the future of slavery was imperilled by the election of Lincoln. The Lost Cause school of thought downplays slavery entirely and champions "states' rights" as an ahistorical post hoc justification.
By removing slavery from the list of sectional issues, Lost Cause adherents "decontaminated it [the Confederate cause] and turned it into something they could cherish"/"The assertion by the Lost Cause spokesmen of the insignificance of slavery in the sectional conflict seems outrageous and disingenuous in the light of nineteenth-century political history, of which Southern spokesmen were and are well aware."

[source]
Forty Two wrote:To answer your question, the South attacked Ft. Sumter because it was a Union fort in South Carolina, which had seceded from the union, and rather than leave South Carolina, Lincoln opted to resupply the fort with a naval force. The south, which wanted the fort turned over to the South Carolina, was nonplussed by the reprovisioning attempt on the fort, so they attempted to take it by force.

Also, a power the federal government was attempting to take after secession was the right of the states to secede, for one thing. The states seceded from the union under the auspices of the notion that the Constitution was a voluntary compact among independent states and each state had the right to remove itself from that compact.
Again, a post hoc justification. The South did not claim that their mythical "right to secede" was being impeded by the federal government, therefore they were justified in starting a war. The Union army did not invade the South until after the war was started by the South.

The original Articles of Confederation established a "Perpetual Union," and the states of the South ratified those articles. The Constitution did not negate the perpetual union established by the Articles of Confederation. Rather, it was a successful attempt to establish "a more perfect Union." The Constitution was also ratified by the South--from a legal viewpoint, there never was a "right to secede." See the Supreme Court ruling in Texas v. White:
The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to "be perpetual." And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained "to form a more perfect Union." It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?
It is notable that in many of the documents of secession, legislators of southern states insisted on referring to the United States as a "Confederation," as a way of implying that secession was a legal course of action. The problem is, the confederation to which they had agreed was defined as a perpetual union.

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Forty Two » Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:17 pm

I sense you are picking a fight where none exists. I don't dispute your characterization, in general terms, and your and my post are in relative harmony, except perhaps at the margins and in the manner of stress. I'm not advocating the position of the South. I was challenging the absolutist statements in the article.

So, I'm not going to argue with your last post, because you're essentially correct, although I would place slightly less stress on the word "the" as I don't view it as "the only." The articles of secession do state other concerns besides slavery. Slavery was, of course, the biggie of states rights. The south wanted it spread into new states, and the north wanted to confine it to already existing states. That was not primarily out of a moral sense of egalitarianism or solidarity with African Americans. The northerners were about as racist as the southerners and nobody thought of blacks as equals - well, hardly anyone. Even abolitionists didn't view them as equal, generally speaking.

The south saw the writing on the wall, that they would lose power in the union if they did not maintain and expand slavery into the new states. They saw the Republican party as an abolitionist party and Lincoln's election set off some bells. The election of Lincoln is specifically mentioned in some articles of secession, too.

So, I agree with you on the broad strokes. Let's not fight. :-)
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:11 pm

The article does overstate some things in my opinion, but I think there is some validity in what Blake says. The issue of race still affects the United States to a greater extent than is acknowledged by many people. The election of Trump was in part driven by an undercurrent of racism. I would not agree with the statement that "racism and xenophobia were central to Trump's victory." However there is no reasonable argument to be made that the racism of certain elements of the United States didn't have an effect on the results of the election. Trump clearly played to that racism. The white supremacists that are celebrating his victory didn't support him for nothing.

In my opinion, Blake goes wrong when he attempts to draw a direct parallel between the refutation of the Lost Cause myth and the statement that "racism 'was the deepest and defining issue' of Trump's campaign." Slavery was indeed the deepest and defining issue behind the American Civil War, while racism was only one issue among many that brought victory to Trump. In contrast to Blake, an argument could be made that racism was a prominent issue but I think that it's not accurate to give it pride of place.

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:44 am

I don't think racism was 'the deepest and defining issue' of Trump's campaign, there was also sexism, confabulation, financial irregularities, cultivated distrust of the electoral system, threats to imprison opponents, mocking the disabled, pussy grabbing, and self-promoted cultism as well.

When Trump said he was going to 'make America great again' what vision of America's past was he holding up as great? Well, none in particular it seemed, but nonetheless the notion was afoot that the US had lost it's mojo and that the Obama administration was wholly to blame. Yeah, Obama, the illegal outsider president; the 'not one of us' president; the foreign-born, foreign-sounding-named, birth-certificate doctoring president. Now the Grand Wazoo of the Birthers, the golden-haired, god's-honest real and 'true' America, is ready to unravel all of that nasty man's... such a nasty man... so nasty... so nasty... nasty man's handiwork. Surely this is all that's needed to make America great again, like it used to be when people like Barrack Obama stood absolutely no chance of holding high, or public, office? Hallelujah!.
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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Tero » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:27 am

Brian, they long for the Reagan era and a daddy figure.

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by JimC » Thu Jan 05, 2017 2:47 am

Reagan was a much more conventional and conservative daddy figure than the Trumpster...
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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:22 am

Regan never grabbed a pussy. Not even Nancy's.
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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:48 am

Trump is a strange one. Ronny was fairly all-American. Trump is a giant fairy. He's equivalent to the fat bully you sometimes see in school yards. He's a giant pussy who hides behind bluster (and not even very good bluster). He only gets any pussy at all because of his money. No woman would go anywhere near him if he wasn't rich. Ronnie, on the other hand..
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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Tero » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:37 am

To a Republican, Reagan was daddy. To them, Trump is just faddy's crooked business partner.

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Forty Two » Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:14 pm

It just might be a bit silly to describe Ronald Reagan as a mere "daddy" figure to Republicans....

Image

Ronald Reagan won 49 states in 1984 (that's AFTER 4 years of his supposedly shitty Presidency), and he only lost Minnesota (his opponent's home state, by about 3%). He came that close to running the table. He won the national vote 59% to 40%, and had 525 electoral votes to Mondale's 13. That was up from his victory of Carter in 1980, where Reagan won 44 States and had 489 electoral votes to Carter's 49.

Compare that to Bill Clinton -- he beat George Bush in 1992 with a popular vote of 43% to 37%. Had it not been for H.Ross Perot taking 13.7% of the vote, Bush would have won a second term. In 1996, Clinton still did not break 50% of the popular vote. He beat Dole 49% to 40%. Ross Perot ran again, and while it's less clear, he may have been the difference in that election too, since he got 9% of the vote.

W. Bush won in 2000 by an Electoral College win, losing the popular vote 48 to 47, and then in 2004, W. Bush managed to get over 50% of the vote -- winning 51% to 43% over Kerry. Obama got 52% to McCain's 47% in 2008, and then in 2012 Obama got 51% to 47% for Romney.

So, if Reagan was a "daddy figure" -- he obviously was a daddy figure to quite a few Democrats. You don't win almost 60% of the vote and take 49 states, most by wide margins, and not have a lot of defectors from the opposing party vote for you.

Maybe Nixon was a daddy figure too, in 1972, Richard Nixon won reelection by taking 49 states and taking almost 61% of the popular vote. Richard Milhous Nixon. LOL. That was UP from 1968 when Nixon was first elected, and he barely beat Hubert Humphrey.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: The Hillary Thread II

Post by Tero » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:49 pm

Comey alone cost Hillary the election:

But the Comey effect was real, it was big, and it probably cost Clinton the election. Below, we present four pieces of evidence demonstrating that this is the case.
When we began looking at the data, we were skeptical that Comey’s intervention was decisive. Politicos are notoriously prone to attributing election outcomes to gaffes and other oversimplified causes.

But Comey’s letter is unique for a few reasons. First, it was an intervention by an institution that Americans have largely perceived as nonpartisan. (Indeed, the FBI actively works to foster that image.) Second, the intervention was almost perfectly timed to impact Clinton at the worst time — dominating the final week of campaigning as an unusually large number of undecided voters made up their minds. Finally, it aligned perfectly with the narrative pushed by Trump — and bolstered by the media’s obsessive coverage of how Clinton handled her State Department email, and the slow-drip release of hacked emails — that Clinton was somehow fundamentally corrupt.

http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/1/ ... n-campaign

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