The Hillary Thread II

[pErvinalia]

Other countries have caved in. China has military installations and offensive weapons there already. It's over. Unless the US goes full on war, there's no getting the South China Sea back. And even then it would be a struggle.

[Forty Two]

Other countries have caved in. China has military installations and offensive weapons there already. It's over. Unless the US goes full on war, there's no getting the South China Sea back. And even then it would be a struggle.

So do we. Why do you think Taiwan isn't really part of mainland China, despite the political nicety of a mythical "one China?" And, we have our presence in the Philippines too, together with our treaty with the Philippines where we have agreed to defend them. The Obama Admin lifted the embargo on arms trade with Vietnam to bolster Vietnam's ability to counter Chinese expansion.

It's not over - http://nationalinterest.org/feature/bew ... -sea-16931

[pErvinalia]

Dutuerte (spelling) is realigning the Philipines with China and wants to boot out US troops. Although, he's a random nutbag, much like Trump (but worse), so it's hard to separate his invective from his actual policies.

And Taiwan isn't in the South China Sea. Although, it is obviously a big counterpoint (along with Japan) to China.

[Forty Two]

Dutuerte (spelling) is realigning the Philipines with China and wants to boot out US troops. Although, he's a random nutbag, much like Trump (but worse), so it's hard to separate his invective from his actual policies.

And Taiwan isn't in the South China Sea. Although, it is obviously a big counterpoint (along with Japan) to China.

The south China sea goes up to Taiwan in the north - it ends at the strait of Taiwan, and Taiwan also own the Pratas Islands.

[Jason]

Taiwan is China, either way, so China does have a legitimate claim on the South China sea.

As a side-note, I find it awesomely hypocritical that the USA (land of democracy) could possibly consider recognizing Taiwan (land of 38 years of brutal suppression under martial law).

[Forty Two]

Taiwan is China, either way, so China does have a legitimate claim on the South China sea.

It doesn't have a legitimate claim on the South China Sea. That's an international waterway. It has, like every other country, a legitimate claim on territorial waters and an exclusive economic zone, under international law. But, it has no legitimate claim to ownership of the high seas, including the South China Sea.

And, we all know that China claims Taiwan as part of the People's Republic of China, and that the US recognizes China as being the government controlled from Beijing, but in actual reality, Taiwan is not part of China, and it has its own government (The Republic of China) and it is supported and defended by the United States. If it wasn't for US military power and arms sold to Taiwan, China would drive up on Taiwan's beaches and depose the President of Taiwan. Taiwan would be a province with a governor, and the Republic of China would cease to exist.

If you ask someone from Taiwan if they live in the People's Republic of China, they'll say "hell no."

[Jason]

in actual reality, Taiwan is not part of China, and it has its own government (The Republic of China)

"In actual reality?" You mean apart from the 22 insignificant tiny nations who do recognize, it's an illegitimate government that has existed by oppressing its people for 38 years under martial law where regulations to prevent unlawful assembly, association, procession, petition, strike under martial law, the Measures to regulate newspapers, magazines and book publication under the martial law and the Regulations for the punishment of rebellions were put in place and continued to exist even after the lifting of martial law in 1987? It doesn't sound like a legitimate government to me.

and it is supported and defended by the United States.

Yes in a display of awesome hypocrisy, the United States has propped up this abhorrent government because it serves a strategic advantage for them. It does not make it a legitimate government by any stretch.

[Jason]

If you ask someone from Taiwan if they live in the People's Republic of China, they'll say "hell no."

If they say anything at all - owing to the regulations on free speech in Taiwan. I suspect they wish they had the freedoms the PRC affords its citizens.

[Forty Two]

in actual reality, Taiwan is not part of China, and it has its own government (The Republic of China)

"In actual reality?" You mean apart from the 22 insignificant tiny nations who do recognize, it's an illegitimate government that has existed by oppressing its people for 38 years under martial law where Regulations to prevent unlawful assembly, association, procession, petition, strike under martial law, the Measures to regulate newspapers, magazines and book publication under the martial law and the Regulations for the punishment of rebellions were put in place and continued to exist even after the lifting of martial law in 1987? It doesn't sound like a legitimate government to me.

Well, Taiwan has been part of the Republic of China since 1912, and the legislature is elected by the people, and the President is elected by popular vote. They do have a fair bit of censorship in Taiwan, but their oppression can't hold a candle to the misdeeds of the People's Republic of China.

How many examples in the PRC are there of Fang Zhoumou's execution? "They beat her, bound her and led her from home. She knelt before the crowds as they denounced her. Then they loaded her on to a truck, drove her to the outskirts of town and shot her." She was turned in by her own son, who was part of the Red Book Brigade in China.

"Fang Zhongmou's execution for political crimes during the Cultural Revolution was commonplace in its brutality but more shocking to outsiders in one regard: her accusers were her husband and their 16-year-old child."

"Thirty-six million people were hounded and perhaps a million died in the turmoil unleashed by Mao Zedong in 1966. They were condemned by their political views and social background or someone's whim, enmity or attempt at self-preservation through incriminating others." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... g-hongping

People's Republic of China is now rolling out a system of "citizenship scores" linked to its national ID card, which ranks individuals on how good a citizen they are from a low score of 350 to a high of 950. Make sure you're a good citizen!

Free speech in the People's Repblic of China is a privilege, not a right - https://www.cecc.gov/freedom-of-express ... ot-a-right In meetings with Commission staff Chinese officials have stated that anyone wanting to publish their opinions may submit their article or book to a government-licensed publisher, but if they are unable to find a licensed publisher, then the only way they can legally exercise their constitutional right to freedom of publication is to "enjoy their works themselves, or give copies to friends and family."

Do you need more? The atrocities and human rights violations of the People's Republic of China are Legion, and it's not a dispute or some "right wing" smear campaign. You can get the information from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, and from mainstream history textbooks and publications.

The Republic of China, however, was formed in 1912, and was the government of mainland China until it was forcibly overthrown, militarily, by the Mao led army which formed the People's Republic of China.

and it is supported and defended by the United States.

Yes in a display of awesome hypocrisy, the United States has propped up this abhorrent government because it serves a strategic advantage for them. It does not make it a legitimate government by any stretch.

According to a survey conducted in March 2009, 49% of the respondents consider themselves as Taiwanese only, and 44% of the respondents consider themselves as Taiwanese and Chinese. 3% consider themselves as only Chinese.[99] Another survey, conducted in Taiwan in July 2009, showed that 82.8% of respondents consider the ROC and the PRC as two separate countries with each developing on its own.[165] A survey conducted in December 2009 showed that 62% of the respondents consider themselves as Taiwanese only, and 22% of the respondents consider themselves as both Taiwanese and Chinese. 8% consider themselves as only Chinese. The survey also shows that among 18- to 29-year-old respondents, 75% consider themselves as Taiwanese only.[166]

In the latest survey conducted by National Chengchi University in 2014 and published in early 2015, 60.6% of respondents identified themselves exclusively as Taiwanese, 32.5% identified themselves as both Taiwanese and Chinese and 3.5% identified themselves as Chinese.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan#Government

About 84% of the population of Taiwan is descended from Han people who moved there between 1666 and 1895. Of the remaining 16%, a good chunk of them are also Han, but are descended from those who moved there after the Communists began their wholesale slaughter in the 1940s and 1950s. So, there is an ethnic difference now between the Taiwanese and the mainland Chinese, and they view themselves as Taiwanese.

But, if it's horrid and outrageous governments you oppose, I can certainly see you having gripes with Taiwan's government. It's not particularly liberal. But, to be outraged by Taiwan and call it illegitimate as a result, but to accept the legitimacy of the People's Republic of China, seems rather incongruous. The innocent blood on the hands of the PRC is staggering.

[Forty Two]

If you ask someone from Taiwan if they live in the People's Republic of China, they'll say "hell no."

If they say anything at all - owing to the regulations on free speech in Taiwan. I suspect they wish they had the freedoms the PRC affords its citizens.

Are you out of your mind? The "freedoms" afforded by the PRC to its citizens? LOL.

I'm not suggesting Taiwan is Shangri-La, but for fuck's sake. They absolutely would NOT want the "freedoms" the PRC affords its citizens.

An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial, and millions are unable to access the legal system to seek redress for their grievances. Harassment, surveillance, house arrest, and imprisonment of human rights defenders are on the rise, and censorship of the Internet and other media has grown. Repression of minority groups, including Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians, and of Falun Gong practitioners and Christians who practice their religion outside state-sanctioned churches continues. While the recent reinstatement of Supreme People's Court review of death penalty cases may result in lower numbers of executions, China remains the leading executioner in the world.

The authorities frequently used administrative punishments, including Re-education through Labour (RTL), to detain people without trial. According to the government, 190,000 people were held in RTL facilities, down from half a million several years ago, although the real figures were likely to be much higher. Former RTL prisoners reported that Falun Gong constituted one of the largest groups of prisoners, and political activists, petitioners and others practising their religion outside permitted bounds were common targets. The authorities used a variety of illegal forms of detention, including "black jails", "legal education classes", "study classes" and mental health institutions to detain thousands of people.

China continued to make extensive use of the death penalty, including for non-violent crimes. The death sentence continued to be imposed after unfair trials. Statistics on death sentences and executions remained classified as state secrets and, while executions numbered in the thousands, the government did not release actual figures.

As the internet was increasingly used to disseminate news and conduct debates, the authorities tried to control its use by restricting news reporting and shutting down publications and internet sites, including ones that "slandered the country's political system", "distorted the history of the Party", "publicized Falun Gong and other evil cults", and "incited ethnic splittism". The government blocked access to content and recorded individuals' activities through new filtering software such as Blue Shield.

Following the publication of Charter 08 in December 2008, a document calling for political reform and greater protection of human rights, police questioned signatories and put them under surveillance for many months.

Liu Xiaobo, a prominent intellectual and signatory originally detained in December 2008, was sentenced to 11 years' imprisonment on 25 December for "inciting subversion of state power". His lawyers were given only 20 minutes to present their case, in a trial that lasted less than three hours.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/coun ... gQod_HQKNw


That's not to mention the extra special treatment they give to their colonial holding, Tibet -- "...keeping political prisoners and prisoners of conscience, including the death penalty in its penal code, ill-treatment of detainees and inaction in the face of ill-treatment of detainees, including torture, the use of the death penalty, extrajudicial executions,[1][2] forced abortions and sterilisation." Reported abuses of human rights in Tibet include restricted freedom of religion, belief, and association. Specifically, Tibetans have faced arbitrary arrest and maltreatment in custody, including torture at the hands of Chinese authorities. Freedom of the Press in the PRC is still absent, and Tibet's media is tightly controlled by the Chinese leadership,[6] making it difficult to determine accurately the scope of human rights abuses. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Tibet


If that's what the People's Republic of China does to Tibet, what do you think they'll do to the Taiwanese, who think they're Taiwanese and not Chinese?

[Jason]

China Tells Japan It’s Unhappy With Name Change of Taipei Office
China has criticized Japan’s decision to add the word Taiwan to the name of its de facto embassy in Taipei, risking fresh tensions over the self-governing island after a recent spat between China and the U.S.

The Interchange Association, Japan said on its website on Wednesday that starting next year it will become the Japan-Taiwan Exchange Association. It said the office "will continue to act as a bridge between Japan and Taiwan and is determined to further advance relations."

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/arti ... pei-office

It seems Japan is eager to jump aboard the Trump train on this issue. Not hardly surprising.

[JimC]

For a "democracy", Taiwan is fairly authoritarian and oppressive, but I agree with 42 that it doesn't hold a candle to the PRC in terms of repressive government. It has existed as a de facto separate nation for a long while now, and 42 is correct to say that, without US military protection, it would have been invaded and "pacified" by PRC troops long ago. Over the medium term, if the power balance between the US and the PRC continues to shift, that protection may eventually not suffice...

[Brian Peacock]

Taiwan is China, either way, so China does have a legitimate claim on the South China sea.

Chihuahua is Texas, either way, so Texas does have a legitimate claim on Chihuahua.

[Jason]

Taiwan is China, either way, so China does have a legitimate claim on the South China sea.

Chihuahua is Texas, either way, so Texas does have a legitimate claim on Chihuahua.

My, admittedly somewhat flippant, point was that the ROC claims to be the legitimate government of all China, not just Taiwan.

[JimC]

Taiwan is China, either way, so China does have a legitimate claim on the South China sea.

Chihuahua is Texas, either way, so Texas does have a legitimate claim on Chihuahua.

My, admittedly somewhat flippant, point was that the ROC claims to be the legitimate government of all China, not just Taiwan.

I can claim to be the Emperor of Tasmania, but unless I can realistically exercise that claim it is without substance...