Let's make Britain great again

[Sean Hayden]

Trump as been playing 4D galactic chess with you losers and now you have nothing.

[Scot Dutchy]

Yep Sean that sums it up nicely.

[pErvinalia]

Trump as been playing 4D galactic chess with you losers and now you have nothing.

[Jason]

I enjoy Trans-dimensional Boggle myself.

[Brian Peacock]

That what Trumpets are; odd.

FFS, you don't like Trump we get it. What constructive ideas do to propose to counter what you think a Trump administration would promote? What strategy do you propose to counter what you see as Trumpism?

Shoot the cunt?

Do you really think Trump didn't think of this. Imagine President Mike Pence, Trump as been playing 4D galactic chess with you losers and now you have nothing.

Having Pence as his running mate was a master stroke. Pence is the reason Trump is never going to be impeached.

[Forty Two]

Hadrian's wall was literally the high water mark for the Roman empire. While apt, I'm not sure that's the connotation you were aiming for.

Hadrian's Wall was built in 122 AD, which was 350 years before the commonly accepted date for the fall of the Western Roman Empire (the Eastern half persisted technically for another 1000 years after that). If the US has another 350 years, that would be quite reassuring.

If you find 350 years of financial decline, social collapse and upheaval, loss of security, civil war, divisions of state, and general chaos quite reassuring I'll say you're quite odd, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, the history of the second half of the Roman Empire is far more complex than simply "financial decline, social collapse and upheaval, loss of security, civil war, divisions of state and general chaos." Rome was a great, relatively stable empire, despite periods of internecine conflict and general decline, etc. Rome began in the 5th century BC and lasted arguably until the 15th century AD, with the eastern half becoming known as the Byzantine Empire. The western bit lasted until the late 5th century AD, and forces much larger than economics and even political upheaval contributed to its end. It's "end" is even more complex than the commonly held belief that Rome "fell" in the 470s AD. If one lived at the time, the transition would have seemed less of a transition and more "life goes on."

There weren't late 5th century historians and writers commenting on the "fall of Rome" last year or four/five years ago. "News flash - Rome falls! Empire Ends!" -- that kind of thing wasn't evident in the 470s. Only the hindsight of historical analysis gave us that.

[Brian Peacock]

It was probably evident to the peoples of Britain once these islands were cut off from the Roman supply lines, succumbing they did to an invasion by the Picts, Frisians, and Angles within 100 years. Bloody foreigners comimg over here stealing our wattle and shagging our women, blah blah blah....

[Forty Two]

It was probably evident to the peoples of Britain once these islands were cut off from the Roman supply lines, succumbing they did to an invasion by the Picts, Frisians, and Angles within 100 years. Bloody foreigners comimg over here stealing our wattle and shagging our women, blah blah blah....

Well, the loss of Britain was not the same thing as the fall of the empire. Rome had trouble retaining Britain long before the "fall" in 476. It lost parts of it, and then recovered, lost and then recovered. Eventually, around 400, they couldn't hold it anymore. But, yes, there was a withdrawal of troops from Britain, and that would have been noticeable as the Roman presence disappeared.

Eventually, you are correct that the barbarians took over and Rome was a distant memory by the early 6th century, although city living, with piped water and baths and the like all lasted well into the 6th century. The Anglo-Saxons came in fairly soon after the Romans lost control. Hengist and Horsa being the legendary first leaders of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes, by betraying Vortigern, King of the Britons. LOL. I love the stories of Hengist and Horsa. Hengist tricked Vortigern to give him Kent by conditioning Vortigern's marriage to Hengist's daughter Rowena on a gift of the kingdom of Kent -- Vortigern agreed. After that, there was war between the Angles and the Britons and the Angles won. They agreed to a piece treaty, but Hengist again tricked Vortigern by having his men conceal knives when attending a peace celebration -- they massacred the Britons and took Vortigern captive. Vortigern was then ransomed for a bunch more Briton lands. The Anglo-Saxons were then solidly entrenched in Britain.

Any Anglo-Saxons, therefore, owe reparations to ethnic Britons, who were pushed westward. I think the Welsh ought to really be given large cash payments, since they had their "lands stolen" from them with dirty tricks and scoundrel techniques of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.

[Jason]

...

You'll just talk to talk won't you?

[Forty Two]

...

You'll just talk to talk won't you?

I was having a discussion with Brian.

[Hermit]

the history of the second half of the Roman Empire is far more complex than simply "financial decline, social collapse and upheaval, loss of security, civil war, divisions of state and general chaos."

Yes, you could dissect "financial decline, social collapse and upheaval, loss of security, civil war, divisions of state and general chaos." into ever smaller parts. You'd finish up with a list similar to this:

Abolition of gods; Abolition of rights; Absence of character; Absolutism; Agrarian question; Agrarian slavery; Anarchy; Anti-Germanism; Apathy; Aristocracy; Asceticism; Attack of the Germans; Attack of the Huns; Attack of riding nomads; Backwardness in science; Bankruptcy; Barbarization; Bastardization; Blockage of land by large landholders; Blood poisoning; Bolshevization; Bread and circuses; Bureaucracy ; Byzantinism; Capillarite sociale; Capitals, change of; Caste system; Celibacy; Centralization; Childlessness; Christianity; Citizenship, granting of; Civil war; Climatic deterioration; Communism; Complacency; Concatenation of misfortunes; Conservatism; Capitalism; Corruption; Cosmopolitanism; Crisis of legitimacy; Culinary excess; Cultural neurosis; Decentralization; Decline of Nordic character; Decline of the cities; Decline of the Italian population; Deforestation; Degeneration; Degeneration of the intellect; Demoralization; Depletion of mineral resources; Despotism; Destruction of environment; Destruction of peasantry; Destruction of political process; Destruction of Roman influence; Devastation; Differences in wealth; Disarmament; Disillusion with stated goals of empire; Division of empire; Division of labor; Earthquakes; Egoism; Egoism of the state; Emancipation of slaves; Enervation; Epidemics; Equal rights, granting of; Eradication of the best; Escapism; Ethnic dissolution; Excessive aging of population; Excessive civilization; Excessive culture; Excessive foreign infiltration; Excessive freedom; Excessive urbanization; Expansion; Exploitation; Fear of life; Female emancipation; Feudalization; Fiscalism; Gladiatorial system; Gluttony; Gout; Hedonism; Hellenization; Heresy; Homosexuality; Hothouse culture; Hubris; Hypothermia; Immoderate greatness; Imperialism; Impotence; Impoverishment; Imprudent policy toward buffer states; Inadequate educational system; Indifference; Individualism; Indoctrination; Inertia; Inflation; Intellectualism; Integration, weakness of; Irrationality; Jewish influence; Lack of leadership; Lack of male dignity; Lack of military recruits; Lack of orderly imperial succession; Lack of qualified workers; Lack of rainfall; Lack of religiousness; Lack of seriousness; Large landed properties; Lead poisoning; Lethargy; Leveling, cultural; Leveling, social; Loss of army discipline; Loss of authority; Loss of energy; Loss of instincts; Loss of population; Luxury; Malaria; Marriages of convenience; Mercenary system; Mercury damage; Militarism; Monetary economy; Monetary greed; Money, shortage of; Moral decline; Moral idealism; Moral materialism; Mystery religions; Nationalism of Rome's subjects; Negative selection; Orientalization; Outflow of gold; Over refinement; Pacifism; Paralysis of will; Paralysization; Parasitism; Particularism; Pauperism; Plagues; Pleasure seeking; Plutocracy; Polytheism; Population pressure; Precociousness; Professional army; Proletarianization; Prosperity; Prostitution; Psychoses; Public baths; Racial degeneration; Racial discrimination; Racial suicide; Rationalism; Refusal of military service; Religious struggles and schisms; Rentier mentality; Resignation; Restriction to profession; Restriction to the land; Rhetoric; Rise of uneducated masses; Romantic attitudes to peace; Ruin of middle class; Rule of the world; Semieducation; Sensuality; Servility; Sexuality; Shamelessness; Shifting of trade routes; Slavery; Slavic attacks; Socialism (of the state); Soil erosion; Soil exhaustion; Spiritual barbarism; Stagnation; Stoicism; Stress; Structural weakness; Superstition; Taxation, pressure of; Terrorism; Tiredness of life; Totalitarianism; Treason; Tristesse; Two-front war; Underdevelopment; Useless eaters; Usurpation of all powers by state; Vain gloriousness; Villa economy; Vulgarization

That done, you'll need to summarise again in order to come up with a meaningful statement, and that summary in turn could be summarised. It'll likely look something like this: "The Roman empire fell after around 350 years of financial decline, social collapse and upheaval, loss of security, civil war, divisions of state, and general chaos."

Though the common people probably were not particularly aware of it at the time - their everyday existence would not have changed markedly with Odoacer's crowning - it's fair to say that the (western) Roman Empire ceased to exist when the last person that could remotely be regarded as a Roman Emperor (no, it was not Julius Nepos) was toppled on September 4 476 AD.

[Brian Peacock]

Being reminded of the compulsory study of Gibbon's turgid tome brought me out in a cold sweat.

[Svartalf]

I've heard of it, bet never to the point of reading it... by the time I was a student of history, the thing was regarded as dated and mostly worthless.

[Hermit]

Being reminded of the compulsory study of Gibbon's turgid tome brought me out in a cold sweat.

Should have got stuck into Mommsen instead.

[Brian Peacock]

The pretensions and preoccupations of my school History teacher put me off the subject for years. I've only become interested in history as I've got closer to becoming it myself.