Free Speech and Islam — The Left Betrays the Most Vulnerable

[JimC]

I guess I'll just have to attack lots of people then, because fuck Islam with a pickled pig's dick.

That's a real thing, right? I've got some pickled pig's feet in the fridge, wonder what they do with the dicks. Hotdogs? Pork pate?

Well, they do say you can eat everything of a pig except the squeal...

[laklak]

Squeal like a pig!

[Exi5tentialist]

Exi5tentialist wrote:

...The false Islam-Muslim dichotomy is just more of the "attack the idea, not the person" shit which is the real totalitarianism that has taken root in the atheist community. People who espouse it want the absolute freedom to attack this so-called "idea" called islam without recognising it that they are attacking vast numbers of people at the same time. ...

More utter bullshit. You are implying that an idea can never be attacked if it is held by someone.

Well, no, actaully - that's not the case. Of course ideas can be attacked if they aree held by someone. Just don't pretend that you're not attacking the person who holds the idea too. Ideas are part of how people define themselves. They are part of who they are.

All I'm saying is, when you attack someone's idea, take into account the scale of the effect on the person. Of course, you have freedom of speech, you can attack a person verbally - I've got no problem with that in principle. Just be prepared to be judged by others by your actions.

Obviously it's a matter of scale. If you're attacking a person, do it with a sense of scale. Outright verbal abuse is not acceptable if the person is not actively being a fascist or a racist, but if they are, it is. And criticising the person is entirely legitimate. Take Paul Golding, for example - the idiot of a candidate who turned his back on Sadiq Khan during the London Mayoral acceptance speech. He's the leader of Britain First, a fascist organisation. He's an idiot. If he were a member here you'd stop me calling him an idiot.

What a bizarre philosophy you have when you can't call fascist idiots, "Fascist Idiots!"

Well, all ideas are held by someone!

Der yes I.... er... know?

This nonsense is in effect saying that ideas, particularly those held by a defined group are sacrosanct, and forever immune from criticism.

OH what a load of bollocks you talk.

In fact the ethical thing to do, when attacking a set of ideas, is to make it absolutely clear that you are not attacking the people who hold those ideas, aside from the inevitable implication that they are mistaken in the ideas they hold.

It depends on who it is and how you want to be judged. The EDL are fascist idiots. I'm sorry you think it's okay to pussyfoot around that, but there you go. That's weakness for you.

Ethics probably are less important to tactics. At times, your proposed tactics will be correct, at others, not.

So, "attack the idea, not the person" is not shit,

Yes, it is shit. Completely, totally and utterly.

It may a useful principle, sometimes, in debating tactics. But because it stops you calling fascists what they are, and idiots what they are, it just neutralises civilised people's armoury against fascists. And idiots.

but a way to make discourse somewhat more civilised.

What an idiotic load of shite.

[cronus]

The proof is in the pudding. Ancient Greece invented all these formal rules for 'civilized' debate and became a servant state of the more realistic Roman Empire....it still works like that. It's then down to the side you choose. If you are a political control freak of the regressive left the countless arbitrary and cruel rules of Sharia law will be a soothing replacement for the vacuum that the collapse of Stalinist style communism brought. I'm of a more bohemian bent in my values and see Islam as a clear threat to my wayward lifestyle.

[Exi5tentialist]

The proof is in the pudding. Ancient Greece invented all these formal rules for 'civilized' debate and became a servant state of the more realistic Roman Empire....it still works like that. It's then down to the side you choose. If you are a political control freak of the regressive left the countless arbitrary and cruel rules of Sharia law will be a soothing replacement for the vacuum that the collapse of Stalinist style communism brought. I'm of a more bohemian bent in my values and see Islam as a clear threat to my wayward lifestyle.

Which Islam? There are millions of them. Stop bloody generalizing.

Rationalia is more Sharia than Sharia. Talk about draconian, with all this stupid ideas versus people shit.