Muslim Ban Over Handshake. Whaddayareckon Liberals?

[Svartalf]

I suspect the handshaking is just the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure there will be more info over the next few days.

suspending the citizenship process over a handshake is a storm in a teacup, but I'd bet there's more to it.

[Brian Peacock]

Oi! I'm still a youngish pup. Unlike some others.

Come over here and say that!

[Forty Two]

Back to the OP - what the refusal says is that we will refuse to display a civilised attitude to women, and that we will continue to exhibit the misogynist attitudes of our religion. It's much more than a missed handshake...

Well, in a free country people can have whatever attitudes they want. Policing attitudes is not a function for which a government is very appropriate or effective.

[Forty Two]

The thing is, people of his generation and in the military tradition don't really shake hands with females. Man, my generation don't traditionally shake hands with females. You only shake hands with a female if you think she'd be cool with it and you are the type who actually shakes hands with females. I've consciously made myself one who will shake hands with everyone, but I still don't shake every female's hand. If met a married couple who were reasonably older than me (say 55+), I would shake the man's hand but not the woman's unless she offered it to me. That's just the standard etiquette for the older generation.

In social contexts, I generally lean in for a cheek kiss with women. Handshakes for men. If it's a woman I know well, then it's a real kiss. If it's a woman who I don't know well, then it's more of a faux kiss.

In business contexts, I shake hands, and there is no lean-in for kiss or hug. However, I don't shake a woman's hand like a man's hand. It's a more gentle touch with a woman's hand. Sometimes women hold their hands out differently, too. More like palm down, rather than standard handshake style.

[Forty Two]

Back to the OP - what the refusal says is that we will refuse to display a civilised attitude to women, and that we will continue to exhibit the misogynist attitudes of our religion. It's much more than a missed handshake...

Have you ever refused to use the same public toilet as a woman? What does that say about you?

I've never "refused" to use the same toilet. The only unisex toilets I've used, though, were one-at-a-time. It's not me or most men that would "refuse" to use a multi-seat toilets if women used them. I'd just walk up to the urinal and start peeing. I think it's more women that would be uncomfortable using bathrooms with men in there than the reverse.

[Exi5tentialist]

Ok, let me be more specific. Have you ever refused to use a women's toilet?

[Forty Two]

No, although full disclosure I have never been offered a "woman's toilet" to use or otherwise had an occasion to refuse to use one I have only ever encountered unisex toilets, or there was a men's room available (not out of a "refusal", but because the men's room was available). Traditionally, too, it would have been quite a social faux pas for a male to use a ladies' room. It's not that men have the problem with it, though. Women typically are less open to having men in the room when they do their business, I think.

You'll see it in popular culture. If a woman goes into a men's room, the men are depicted as generally not giving much of a shit. And, like, female reporters going into men's locker rooms. Men aren't supposed to care, or we're expected to man-up and deal. Women, though, are generally not required to be so understanding, which is why you usually don't see male reporters in female athlete locker rooms.

[JimC]

Back to the OP - what the refusal says is that we will refuse to display a civilised attitude to women, and that we will continue to exhibit the misogynist attitudes of our religion. It's much more than a missed handshake...

Except that obviously they would say it was a matter of respect towards women, and not a refusal to be civilised. In any case the point remains unless it is illegal as a Swiss citizen to hold those beliefs or act according to them, then it shouldn't be a basis for deportation. If it makes them unfit for the school then the school has every right to dismiss them, but I don't see how it should affect their right to citizenship.

They might say that, but the world knows it's bullshit...

[Exi5tentialist]

Hard to keep track on the phone who's answered who, sorry. My point about toilets is this: people are criticising a couple of muslims for treating women differently from men. But we westerners do that every day, not just in the crap pay and under-representation in parliament but in a load of other things too, like for example not letting them use men's toilets. Think about it, there's no intrinsic anatomical or other reason why a public toilet can't just be one room, with a urinal on one wall and rows of cubicles on another. But we all collude in treating women differently, and not going into 'their' room. This kind of gender segregation is completely irrational along with loads of other forms of gender segregation in the west that are designed to show that women should be treated differently. Yet we say "fuck 'em" of a couple of muslims who treat women differently from men by not shaking their hand. We're hypocrites, and if we're doing hypocrisy on the basis of islam, we're islamophobic hypocrites. This is a non-story. Nothing interesting here, apart from the islamophobia on display.

[JimC]

Tell me, where and when did this obsession with public toilets start, Exi?

[Exi5tentialist]

Tell me, where and when did this obsession with public toilets start, Exi?

A manufactured attack on my mental health does not constitute a rational answer to the point I made.

You treat men and women differently every day, and yet you say "Fuck 'em, I'm over stupid fucking muslims" when they do exactly the same thing.

All you did in response was say that you follow social norms. Hey, that's exactly what they do!

Then you said public toilets are labelled blokes and sheilas, i.e. you do what you're told to do by the authority system that runs everything. Again, a submission to authority in pursuit of sexist ideas of gender segregation.

Your retort, rather than being logical and rational, is to insult me about some "obsession" that I'm supposed to have. Again, bolstering the system with traditional insults rather than actually addressing the logic of the situation as any good rationalist should.

So if I say "Fuck 'em, I'm over stupid fucking atheists" what are you going to do, give me a warning?

[Brian Peacock]

Lighten up and don't be baity. We're just having a friendly conversation here thassall.

[Forty Two]

Hard to keep track on the phone who's answered who, sorry. My point about toilets is this: people are criticising a couple of muslims for treating women differently from men. But we westerners do that every day, not just in the crap pay

False. Women get paid the same for the same job/experience/qualifications.

and under-representation in parliament

It's a free country, isn't it? Women have the vote. The fact that they choose to vote regardless of sex seems to me to be an exercise in voting.

but in a load of other things too, like for example not letting them use men's toilets.

Do they want to use men's toilets? The tradition of having separate washrooms for men and women is far more about women's modesty than men's. And it's no different than "not letting men use women's toilets." It's not a sexist thing - neither men nor women can use a washroom designated for the opposite sex. The reason being is that in the men's room, there are these things called urinals and men take their dicks out and pee in view of other people in the room. Often, there aren't even dividers between the urinals. Further, when people take shits and fart and such, it is not uncommon for them to want to have a degree of discretion and modesty in relation to those bodily functions. Women also do other things in public restrooms, like make-up and other self-care that they generally don't want to do in front of men. The idea that women have been fighting for the right to shit in the men's room, from which they have been barred by the sexist patriarchy, is bizarre and a weird reworking of reality.

Think about it, there's no intrinsic anatomical or other reason why a public toilet can't just be one room, with a urinal on one wall and rows of cubicles on another.

Certainly not. It's a cultural norm. And, cultures exist. Surely, you don't deny that a culture can have cultural aspects that apply generally? In our culture, men kind of don't want to, despite the stereotype, take their dicks out in front of women, generally speaking. You're at a restaurant with your wife, and you go to the men's room, and drain the lizard, you aren't really looking to have women see you pissing. Women, too, generally aren't all that excited about Mel walking in to drop a huge deuce while they're in their doing their makeup. "Don't worry ladies, this won't be too bad!" heh heheheh heheh "I'm gonna freshen up the place!"

But we all collude in treating women differently, and not going into 'their' room.

Men and women BOTH have their own restroom. And, it's not some particular injustice TO WOMEN. FFS.

This kind of gender segregation is completely irrational along with loads of other forms of gender segregation in the west that are designed to show that women should be treated differently. Yet we say "fuck 'em" of a couple of muslims who treat women differently from men by not shaking their hand. We're hypocrites, and if we're doing hypocrisy on the basis of islam, we're islamophobic hypocrites. This is a non-story. Nothing interesting here, apart from the islamophobia on display.

Have we? I haven't. I sided with the Muslims. You may be a hypocrite, but not me.

Islam is a piece of shit religion. Doesn't mean I don't side with the Muslims on this issue.

[Forty Two]

Tell me, where and when did this obsession with public toilets start, Exi?

A manufactured attack on my mental health does not constitute a rational answer to the point I made.

You treat men and women differently every day, and yet you say "Fuck 'em, I'm over stupid fucking muslims" when they do exactly the same thing.

I treat men and women differently every day, for sure. We have cultural norms. So, I stand when a woman comes to the table, I open doors for her, particularly car doors. I generally do the driving, if it's between me and a woman. When they need heavy stuff lifted, I lift it for them, whereas I might help a guy, but I'm not fucking doing it for him.

All you did in response was say that you follow social norms. Hey, that's exactly what they do!

Correct. That's why they can do as they please.

Then you said public toilets are labelled blokes and sheilas, i.e. you do what you're told to do by the authority system that runs everything. Again, a submission to authority in pursuit of sexist ideas of gender segregation.

It's just tradition. Women don't want guys in there, generally speaking. Guys would, generally speaking, care much less than women. If a guy is shaking hands with the governor, he's not going to get all bunged up if Sheila walks in. Try Mel walking in, all 6'2" of him, with his newspaper, to go take a dump in the ladies room. Which sex is going to be more put off by the unisex bathroom?

[pErvinalia]

Hard to keep track on the phone who's answered who, sorry. My point about toilets is this: people are criticising a couple of muslims for treating women differently from men. But we westerners do that every day, not just in the crap pay

False. Women get paid the same for the same job/experience/qualifications.

False. We've provided the evidence for you before.

and under-representation in parliament

It's a free country, isn't it? Women have the vote. The fact that they choose to vote regardless of sex seems to me to be an exercise in voting.

If women aren't preselected by their parties, then they can't get anyone's vote.