Music. - Why?

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Music. - Why?

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:06 pm

At the risk of starting a serious topic, I was wondering:-

What natural capacity present in humans is it that allows us to enjoy music so much. - Language, perhaps?

Does the capacity for complex language alone - with all it's tones, inflections etc. really allow us to draw such vivid imagery from a series of consecutive and concurrent tones without even hearing a single spoken word?

If I listen to, say, Beethoven's Pastoral then it really does 'sound' like a ride through beautiful countryside on a lovely summer's day to my ears. - Does the same piece of music evoke the same imagery or emotion for people from different (I suppose I mean Eastern) cultures?
I have to say that eastern music does sound a little alien to me and in some ways it just sounds 'Eastern' and I'm sure I'm missing out on something that only a person from that culture can fully grasp.

What's your experience of music?

Jus' wonderin'....... :think:

Edit:-
Couldn't resist putting it up. :roll: :-)
Last edited by JacksSmirkingRevenge on Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:09 pm

I suspect we took it from nature. Bird songs would have been the MTV of the stone-agers.
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:12 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:I suspect we took it from nature. Bird songs would have been the MTV of the stone-agers.
So why would Chinese music sound Chinese and European music sound European? :dono:
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:14 pm

Major Eyeswater wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:I suspect we took it from nature. Bird songs would have been the MTV of the stone-agers.
So why would Chinese music sound Chinese and European music sound European? :dono:
Parallel evolution? The language would drive the music that accompanies it. Musical accompaniment requires sounds that compliment the voice as the voice is less flexible than the instruments.
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by AshtonBlack » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:46 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Major Eyeswater wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:I suspect we took it from nature. Bird songs would have been the MTV of the stone-agers.
So why would Chinese music sound Chinese and European music sound European? :dono:
Parallel evolution? The language would drive the music that accompanies it. Musical accompaniment requires sounds that compliment the voice as the voice is less flexible than the instruments.
IIRC, Steven Pinker explains it as a by-product of the parts of the brain involved with language, in a similar way religion is explained as a by-product of our social mechanisms. That is to say, strictly speaking, neither give a direct genetic advantage but are useful in social situations.

About 3:30 in... (But it's worth watching the whole thing, very interesting.)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yIMReUsx ... r_embedded[/youtube]

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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by JacksSmirkingRevenge » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:16 pm

Thanks for that Ashton. I found the whole vid interesting. :tup:
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by AshtonBlack » Sun Jul 19, 2009 9:19 pm

Major Eyeswater wrote:Thanks for that Ashton. I found the whole vid interesting. :tup:
I recently read "The Language Instinct" by that chap. Very very interesting.

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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by RESiNATE » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:30 am

Major Eyeswater wrote:I have to say that eastern music does sound a little alien to me and in some ways it just sounds 'Eastern' and I'm sure I'm missing out on something that only a person from that culture can fully grasp.
I'm not Chinese, but I am a 'fan' of most of the Ancient Chinese philosophies.
Only guessing here, but I would thinkk that most Chinese music echoes from martial arts.

When I hear [stereo]typical music of Eastern cultures, my mind conjures up images of martial combat or martial art movements - typically, Tai Chi movements.

I have studied various martial arts (predominently Kung Fu), and the movements and stances are based upon the animal kingdom - preying mantis, fighting eagle, and so on - indeed, the world-reknown Chinese fighting Dragon and Lion dances accompany those [stereo]typical eastern sounds.

The 'encounter' stage of the dance is portrayed in broken sounds - caution, intrigue, awareness.
The 'battle' stage of the dance portrayed in flurries of instruments.
The 'stand-off' stage, and so on.

I wonder if we took the time to fully understand the 'story' behind the dance (and so the music that accompanies it), we would better appreciate the tones and inflection that we sometimes find baffling.
After all, if I listened to Chinese music on its own, it wouldn't make as much sense as it would if I listened to the same peice whilst a team of dancers acted out the 'story' in front of me.

Beethoven's 'Pastoral Suite' has been explained to us - at school probably - and so the imagery is easy to associate. Just as the 'William Tell Overture', or 'The Flight of The Valkyrie' invokes imagery for us, the Eastern 'equivolents' (if they were shown explained to us) would invoke respective imagery.

Major Eyeswater, get yourself copies of the following DVDs, and then the music might make more sense:

'Hero' - stars Jet Li, and tells the story of a fearless warrior who seeks vengeance against the fearsome army that massacred his people. The visuals are stunning, and the music that accompanies it tells the story as well as the imagery.

'Kung Fu Hustsle' - largely a funny movie, but the music that goes with the fight scenes is tradditional music, and you'll begin to make sense of the sounds that you hear.

'House of Flying daggers' - again, the music is tradditional and places the imagery within you.

It about translation as much as anything, I guess - we in the West are ignorant of [not just] Chinese mythology and history, and cannot therefore appreciate the story that the music is telling.

I'm going to start rambling now lmao

We humans respond to beat and rythmn.
The first sounds we hear are those of our mother's heartbeat.
When we are born, we don't understand language, but we do respond to tones - voices of happiness are high pitched, whilst sounds of disapproval are lower tones. As we grow older, those mandates apply throughout.

The booming tones of Holst's 'Mars, The Bringer of War' (from 'The Planets'...one of my personal favourites) are low and foreboding.

Whilst 'Peter's theme', from 'Peter and The Wolf' (another favourite), is chirpy and happy.
As too is 'The Dance of The Sugar Plum Fairy', from 'The Nutcracker Suite' - a peice of music that invokes images of fairies (unsurprisingly) prancing around gaily dressed in tutus and wings.

Also, the beats-per-minute (BPM) of music can affect our heart rates and bodily responses.

Here's a little trick one can do with their female partner:

Get a big ass bass speaker, ask your lady to stand facing the speaker, and play a tone of frequency 32Hz and see what happens hehehehehehehehehehehehehe

Another response to music.
Try eating your dinner slowly whilst listing to something of 160BPM....or walking through a store casually whilst upbeat music is playing.

When we are down, we tend to listen to music that reflects that mood...soppy love ballads, etc...we have all done it!

When we are upbeat, we want our music to echo that euphoria.

In the past, drums were used to send messages.

And, a tone of 20Hz will kill you.

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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by charlou » Tue Jul 28, 2009 5:35 am

Interesting discussion - this kind of thing fascinates me.
Major Eyeswater wrote:I have to say that eastern music does sound a little alien to me and in some ways it just sounds 'Eastern' and I'm sure I'm missing out on something that only a person from that culture can fully grasp.
Culture is your key word there, I think. If you'd been raised in a deeply Eastern culture you'd have been raised with the music during your development and it would seem more natural and familiar to you than, say, hip hop. :biggrin:

Even many elderly Westerners lose touch with current trends in Western music and prefer to tap their toes to the more comfortably familiar tunes of bygone days ...
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by Thinking Aloud » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:48 am

I had a personal hypothesis about a link with birdsong: birds tend to sing melodiously (I generalise) when marking their territory, attracting mates, etc, but when alarmed either make a lot of noise or go silent. I hypothesised that these audible cues were recognised early on by humans or their mammal predecessors, such that melodious music provides a sense of calm, whereas its sudden absence, or the staccato danger calls alert us to danger - approaching predators, etc.

When humans discovered they could make those calming or alarming sounds themselves, music was born. Our response to it might still be related to that early reaction to the natural sounds of our environment.

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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by Feck » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:53 am

Um the Pastoral , the light fluffy side of fox hunting :nono:
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:14 am

Most of this discussion seems focussed on the melodic and harmonic elements of music. What I have not seen mentioned (apologies if I missed it along the way) is Rhythm.

Most 'primitive' music (and I use that term loosely) has a strong rhythm and very primitive melodic and harmonic structure. The beat is the heart of music and echoes the natural rhythms found in our bodies - both that of the heart and the rhythms of sex. The earliest musical instruments were almost certainly drums of some kind - possibly utensils such as gourds and bowls, put to other uses for festive / religious occasions.
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by charlou » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:29 am

That's true, XC.



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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by The Red Fox » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:20 am

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:Most of this discussion seems focussed on the melodic and harmonic elements of music. What I have not seen mentioned (apologies if I missed it along the way) is Rhythm.

Most 'primitive' music (and I use that term loosely) has a strong rhythm and very primitive melodic and harmonic structure. The beat is the heart of music and echoes the natural rhythms found in our bodies - both that of the heart and the rhythms of sex. The earliest musical instruments were almost certainly drums of some kind - possibly utensils such as gourds and bowls, put to other uses for festive / religious occasions.
Listening to Native American music (which as far as I know is one of the oldest forms of tribal music still played) I would certainly agree. However, archaeology suggests music may have developed beyond rhythm fairly early in our history. Even before the dawn of civilisation we were creating melodies. Interestingly the article also points to the possibility of music bringing us as species closer together, so perhaps music may have been more social and day-to-day for early humans as opposed to being used uniquely for religious and celebratory events.

As for eastern music I've always loved the Sitar. Ragas have had a much more profound effect on my playing than western music, which can sound rigid in comparison to the rich, almost kaleidoscopic sounds of eastern music. That's not to say together they can't sound beautiful:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNohgbLF ... re=related[/youtube]
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Re: Music. - Why?

Post by Rum » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:06 am

The Pastoral is a bit chocolate boxy for my tastes,but it was in any case spoilt forwever for me by hearing it first in Disney's movie Fantasia, where it is used to 'describe' a pastoral scene with centaurs and other mythological creatures in a fantasy setting. I hate the fact that whenever I hear it I have those damn images immediately in my mind.

Incidentally the 'appreciation' of music issue - there is something in there for me about the appeal of harmonics, which are natural symmetrical and one might say aesthetically pleasing in their own right. How we come to find them pleasing is of course the crux of the matter. Something to do with pattern recognition too perhaps, which we have specialised in big time through our evolutionary development.

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