Torture

[cronus]

The likes of Crumple don't like to admit it but the world has in many respects become a much kinder place where empathy and humanity are much more the norm. Not everywhere, but in a lot of places.

A gentle breeze before the fall Rum...I'm sure Rome was cool before it fell also....lot's of pig-sex and the like also.

[Seth]

Though this book is new, the basic facts of the ineffectiveness of torture is old hat, and widely known. So why the hell have government 'servants' practiced torture to gather intelligence?

Torture doesn't work. Interrogation that psychologically and physically stresses a subject does, however, work.

If it didn't work, and didn't lead to actionable intelligence, then it wouldn't be done for the purposes of gaining intelligence.

But it does work. Sure, there may be a lot of chaff to sift to find the grains of truth, but those grains of truth, combined with other grains of truth from the subject or other terrorists, results in actionable intelligence that allows terrorists to be identified, intercepted before they can do more harm, and killed.

By breaking down resistance and confusing the subject using physical and psychological stressors, he may reveal information he did not intend to reveal, and would not reveal under less stressful, more "gentle" forms of interrogation. And when the lives of dozens, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands or millions of people are at risk, and the subject of the interrogation is a known terrorist, then the interrogation is both necessary and appropriate.

After all, all any person held in custody on terrorism charges needs to do to avoid all forms of physical or psychological stress is to truthfully and fully answer any and all questions asked of him by his interrogators. So if the terrorist gets waterboarded because he refuses to answer questions truthfully and provide the requested information, the only person he has to blame is himself, because he's choosing such interrogation.

Your mistake, and the mistake of the Marxist Progressives at Harvard is mistaking intensive interrogation for "torture." They are not at all the same thing.

You do love the lefties at Harvard, don't you?

[Seth]

Scumple

That 'logic' has been used throughout history and has never worked. When one side uses torture, it just increases the level of hatred the other side feels for them, and makes for increased hostility.

But if the intelligence gained allows you to defeat your enemies and destroy them utterly, who cares what they think? If one has to interrogate a Nazi who has information vital to destroying Hitler's V-rocket program and his nuclear bomb facility, then that Nazi damned well better give up the information, and right now, because he is part of an evil regime that is murdering millions and therefore has no right to expect mercy from his captors, and the need to protect the innocent far outweighs any moral issues one might have with subjecting a Nazi to unpleasant interrogation. And if that makes him hate those who interrogated him, who cares, he's going to be executed for being a Nazi anyway.

Exactly the same is true of Muslim terrorists. They give no mercy or quarter and therefore they are entitled to none, and none should be given to them. They should be interrogated to extract everything possible and then executed, on the spot. If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

[Seth]

The likes of Crumple don't like to admit it but the world has in many respects become a much kinder place where empathy and humanity are much more the norm. Not everywhere, but in a lot of places.

Yes, it has, and that's a good thing. Unfortunately there are still barbarians at the gates, so it's not all flower, rainbows and unicorns just yet. We just need to rid the planet of a relatively small minority of radical jihadis and Marxists and then we can all sing "Happy, happy, joy, joy" and kiss each other.

[rainbow]

If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

Torture is terrorism.

Therefore if you support torture, you are a terrorist.

[Blind groper]

Very true, Rainbow.

It is telling that only real support for torture in this thread comes from the one person who is also the most barbaric in his views. If governments ran things according to Seth, we would still be under Attila the Hun type leaders, with male on male violence removing perhaps 20% of every generation.

[L'Emmerdeur]

You will be aware that for vast tracts of human history cruelty was the stabilising norm, ensuring the security of all.

You can support this assertion regarding cruelty ensuring the "security of all"? Rome was by modern standards a relatively cruel civilisation, with punishments that most people would consider barbaric and over the top, yet in poorer areas of the city criminal activity was rampant. Yes, cruelty was common during much of history, but I question whether it can be shown that that cruelty resulted in a higher level of security than we see in relatively less cruel modern societies.

From "Ancient Rome":

As with any city, Rome had its rich and poor areas. The poor could only afford to live in wooden houses which were a serious fire risk in a hot country like Italy. On a number of occasions, Rome suffered severe damage as a result of fires starting in the city’s slums. The slums were also dangerous places to go to if you had any money as crime was very common. The Emperor Augustus created a police force to patrol the city but the poor areas remained all but untamed. However, for the influential people of Rome, this was of little importance as they never visited such areas.

[Seth]

If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

Torture is terrorism.

Therefore if you support torture, you are a terrorist.

I don't support torture, I support vigorous interrogation of terrorist subjects to extract vital information to thwart their plans to kill people followed by swift military tribunals and immediate execution for crimes against humanity for those guilty of terrorism.

[Jason]

Torture is extreme intercourse - when you're bored of fucking and polite conversation you can always interrogate your wife with an advanced technique or two. I know some people who offer classes if this intrigues you overly.

[Jason]

If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

Torture is terrorism.

Therefore if you support torture, you are a terrorist.

I don't support torture, I support vigorous interrogation of terrorist subjects to extract vital information to thwart their plans to kill people followed by swift military tribunals and immediate execution for crimes against humanity for those guilty of terrorism.

And just so we're perfectly clear, you've just described suicide bombing. Well done. Good luck with those civil uprisings my friend, I'm going to be busy for a while.

[Seth]

If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

Torture is terrorism.

Therefore if you support torture, you are a terrorist.

I don't support torture, I support vigorous interrogation of terrorist subjects to extract vital information to thwart their plans to kill people followed by swift military tribunals and immediate execution for crimes against humanity for those guilty of terrorism.

And just so we're perfectly clear, you've just described suicide bombing. Well done. Good luck with those civil uprisings my friend, I'm going to be busy for a while.

Say what? How do you get that from what I said?

[rainbow]

If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

Torture is terrorism.

Therefore if you support torture, you are a terrorist.

I don't support torture, I support vigorous interrogation of terrorist subjects to extract vital information to thwart their plans to kill people followed by swift military tribunals and immediate execution for crimes against humanity for those guilty of terrorism.

...such as:

October 03, 2015
...
Kabul/Brussels. 3 October 2015: The international medical organization Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) condemns in the strongest possible terms the horrific aerial bombing of its hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. Twelve staff members and at least 10 patients, including three children, were killed; 37 people were injured including 19 staff members. This attack constitutes a grave violation of International Humanitarian Law.

All indications currently point to the bombing being carried out by international Coalition forces. MSF demands a full and transparent account from the Coalition regarding its aerial bombing activities over Kunduz on Saturday morning. MSF also calls for an independent investigation of the attack to ensure maximum transparency and accountability.

I have yet to see the trial and execution of those responsible.

Double standards, Seth. It was an act of terrorism, yet I didn't see you condemning it at all.

If I missed it, please post where you showed your utter disgust at this act of barbarity.

[Jason]

If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

Torture is terrorism.

Therefore if you support torture, you are a terrorist.

I don't support torture, I support vigorous interrogation of terrorist subjects to extract vital information to thwart their plans to kill people followed by swift military tribunals and immediate execution for crimes against humanity for those guilty of terrorism.

And just so we're perfectly clear, you've just described suicide bombing. Well done. Good luck with those civil uprisings my friend, I'm going to be busy for a while.

Say what? How do you get that from what I said?

Don't worry about it. The words tasted good so I spat em out.

[cronus]

The likes of Crumple don't like to admit it but the world has in many respects become a much kinder place where empathy and humanity are much more the norm. Not everywhere, but in a lot of places.

Embedded journalists in the numerous warzones would have you believe that and more Rum. Yet, ask yourself, if all this kindness is increasing what happens to it when most of that coal, oil and gas must be left underground rather than fuel folks sense of freedom....? Scarcity will bring the tooth and nail out the beast....

[Seth]

If you don't like that, then don't be a terrorist, and don't support terrorism. Act like a civilized person instead of a rabid animal and you won't be treated like a rabid animal. Pretty simple really.

Torture is terrorism.

Therefore if you support torture, you are a terrorist.

I don't support torture, I support vigorous interrogation of terrorist subjects to extract vital information to thwart their plans to kill people followed by swift military tribunals and immediate execution for crimes against humanity for those guilty of terrorism.

...such as:

October 03, 2015
...
Kabul/Brussels. 3 October 2015: The international medical organization Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) condemns in the strongest possible terms the horrific aerial bombing of its hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. Twelve staff members and at least 10 patients, including three children, were killed; 37 people were injured including 19 staff members. This attack constitutes a grave violation of International Humanitarian Law.

All indications currently point to the bombing being carried out by international Coalition forces. MSF demands a full and transparent account from the Coalition regarding its aerial bombing activities over Kunduz on Saturday morning. MSF also calls for an independent investigation of the attack to ensure maximum transparency and accountability.

I have yet to see the trial and execution of those responsible.

Depends on the facts that are discovered on investigation, which some suggest include DWB being a supporter of terrorism, a politically-motivated organization, and possible intel that the hospital was being used by jihadis.

Double standards, Seth. It was an act of terrorism, yet I didn't see you condemning it at all.

Sounds like an act of war to me, with lamentable collateral damage caused by DWB welcoming terrorists into the hospital. If you don't want to get blown up along with terrorists, then don't hang around with them. But, we'll see how it all shakes out.

If I missed it, please post where you showed your utter disgust at this act of barbarity.

Was it a "barbarity" done deliberately to kill non-combatants, which is what ISIS terrorists do, or was it a misguided strike on what was understood to be a terrorist haven? The tactic of hiding among civilians is a hoary old tactic of terrorists that they use just so that they can make these sorts of accusations when their cowardice results in innocent people being killed.

I've seen no evidence that the strike was intended to kill innocents for the purposes of political or religious terrorism. Do you have some?