This is why we need the death penalty...

[Blind groper]

The reason we have the current jury system is historical, based on a period in history when the 'lower classes' were normally judged by the aristocracy, with horrible verdicts. The jury of one's peers was designed to avoid that. But times have changed, and we are no longer judged by aristocrats. Sadly, the jury system has not changed with it, and we get miscarriages of justice due to idiots who should not be there passing wrong verdicts. When I was a juror, I saw some pretty crazy stuff in that jury room. Picking 12 people more or less at random definitely does not guarantee smarts!

[Brian Peacock]

You don't have to be smart to be honest.

[JimC]

You don't have to be smart to be honest.

...and make lots of stupidly honest mistakes...

[Seth]

The reason we have the current jury system is historical, based on a period in history when the 'lower classes' were normally judged by the aristocracy, with horrible verdicts. The jury of one's peers was designed to avoid that.

Exactly correct.

But times have changed, and we are no longer judged by aristocrats.

No they haven't. I present Iran as an excellent example of the rather common current practice of people being judged by mobs, star chambers and those in power. If you don't believe me, go to Iran and announce you are gay and then enjoy the flight. Remember, it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end...or the stones.

If you don't think Google has aspirations to take over the criminal justice system so it can set it's own laws, you're delusional. At the moment they want to take control of ALL airspace below 400 feet AGL so that they can use it to deliver packages by drone. They want to run the low-level "drone airspace" with their own super-nifty traffic control system that will, of course, favor their megalomaniacal aspirations. And the logical next step is to grant them judicial authority so they can enforce their rules.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. All persons in positions of power seek more power and control. The jury system is essential to preventing the "aristocracy" of today from manipulating the justice system to its own ends, as Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot so aptly proved inevitably happens when the people are removed as the ultimate arbiters of justice.

Sadly, the jury system has not changed with it, and we get miscarriages of justice due to idiots who should not be there passing wrong verdicts. When I was a juror, I saw some pretty crazy stuff in that jury room. Picking 12 people more or less at random definitely does not guarantee smarts!

Right, but it is the best way humans have developed to administer justice.

[Blind groper]

Seth

It is just the best MEDIEVAL way humanity came up with for dispensing justice. We have come a long way since then, and there are many better methods available, if we just use them.

[Seth]

Seth

It is just the best MEDIEVAL way humanity came up with for dispensing justice. We have come a long way since then, and there are many better methods available, if we just use them.

No, there aren't. Justice is best served when it is dispensed by those who are most affected by the wrongs committed, which is the body of the people.

[Brian Peacock]

Ah, the tyranny of the baying mob wins through in the end. How comforting.

[Seth]

Ah, the tyranny of the baying mob wins through in the end. How comforting.

Well, that's why we have juries, which are not generally a mob. The alternative is much worse.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

My death penalty was saved, but luckily, Messi scored on the rebound.

[Brian Peacock]

Ah, the tyranny of the baying mob wins through in the end. How comforting.

Well, that's why we have juries, which are not generally a mob. The alternative is much worse.

From 'the body of the people' to 'jurors'. Watch those goalposts slide.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Ah, the tyranny of the baying mob wins through in the end. How comforting.

Well, that's why we have juries, which are not generally a mob. The alternative is much worse.

From 'the body of the people' to 'jurors'. Watch those goalposts slide.

THat's why I missed my penalty! Bloody goalpost movers!

[Seth]

Ah, the tyranny of the baying mob wins through in the end. How comforting.

Well, that's why we have juries, which are not generally a mob. The alternative is much worse.

From 'the body of the people' to 'jurors'. Watch those goalposts slide.

Cognition failure on your part.

Here's what I wrote: "No, there aren't. Justice is best served when it is dispensed by those who are most affected by the wrongs committed, which is the body of the people."

In the context of the discussion, "the body of the people" is the pool from which juries are chosen, as opposed to determiners of guilt assigned by either the government or the court.

Just as was mentioned, juries came about to stop the abuse of the aristocracy, which chose judges from among its own to render judgment on the lower classes, which is obviously a conflict of interest.

The wrongs done are wrongs done to the body of the people, not to the state in it's guise as the government, and not to the court either. That's why all crimes are brought in the name of the people of the state or the nation and not in the name of the state or nation itself.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

We win when we post a single sentence and Seth responds with an essay. Long may it continue.

[JimC]

I partly agree with Seth, in that I'm reluctant to hand control in judicial systems from representatives of the people to some elite panel of experts. I concede that this can have disadvantages, in terms of people with a limited ability to understand complex cases. Perhaps there should be a neutral "judge's representative, at least in complex cases, who can sit with the jurors and give some objective guidance when asked, without taking part in the final decision.

[Blind groper]

No, there aren't. Justice is best served when it is dispensed by those who are most affected by the wrongs committed, which is the body of the people.

Actually, justice is best served when it is based on the truth. An idiot jury that has no idea of what constitutes good or bad evidence is an affront to justice. What is needed, as in every other walk of life, is expertise.