Wtf is dark matter?

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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by mistermack » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:17 pm

jamest wrote: The problem with that is that there's more than four times the mass of dark matter relative to visible matter, yet visible matter has evidently clumped together. If the gravitational affect of visible matter sufficed to facilitate its clumping together, then there can be no good reason why dark matter should remain evenly distributed throughout.
That assumes that dark matter behaves just like visible matter.
Also, if they are arguing that they are detecting dark matter by the movement of stars in galaxies, then it seems obvious that some dark matter must have clumped together in the vicinity of the galaxy.

Like I said, there is a lot of visible matter that hasn't clumped together. Dark matter could also be non-clumped, in various quantities.
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by surreptitious57 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 1:36 pm

Point Number One : light does not bend as james thinks it does but merely gives the appearance of doing so. Since it actually travels on a
geodesic as hack said which is a straight line in three dimensional non Euclidean space. So it is in fact nothing more than an optical illusion

Point Number Two : dark matter can not clump together like standard matter can for it actually passes through it and this is why it is next to impossible to
trap any. It is therefore significantly less restricted in physical capability and in that particular respect has the same property as radiation which also passes
through standard matter. The supreme irony is that dark matter routinely passes through Earth but can not be studied for any great length of time. Physicists
have managed to isolate some of it but it remains enormously elusive so before it can be observed in much detail a way has to be worked out how to contain it
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:55 pm

jamest wrote:
mistermack wrote:James, I can't claim to have followed every word of this discussion, or any great knowledge on the subject. But I'll just hazard a comment anyway.

You write that ''matter clumps together'' but are missing the fact that lots of matter doesn't clump together. It needs a certain density to start clumping, as in molecular clouds of gas and dust.
Even then, often nothing happens, till you get something like a supernova which blasts out energy in a shockwave and compresses local clouds enough that they can start to clump together.
If the temperature of the gas cloud isn't low enough, and the mass of the cloud isn't great enough, the gas cloud can just stay in balance for billions of years. The heat energy is enough to prevent a gravity collapse.

I would think that it's perfectly possible for dark matter to be so thinly distributed that it's not going to ever clump together, in time-frames of just a few billion years.
The problem with that is that there's more than four times the mass of dark matter relative to visible matter, yet visible matter has evidently clumped together. If the gravitational affect of visible matter sufficed to facilitate its clumping together, then there can be no good reason why dark matter should remain evenly distributed throughout.
Ordinary matter wasn't distributed evenly after the big bang. Hence clumping
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:57 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:Point Number One : light does not bend as james thinks it does but merely gives the appearance of doing so. Since it actually travels on a
geodesic as hack said which is a straight line in three dimensional non Euclidean space. So it is in fact nothing more than an optical illusion

Point Number Two : dark matter can not clump together like standard matter can for it actually passes through it and this is why it is next to impossible to
trap any. It is therefore significantly less restricted in physical capability and in that particular respect has the same property as radiation which also passes
through standard matter. The supreme irony is that dark matter routinely passes through Earth but can not be studied for any great length of time. Physicists
have managed to isolate some of it but it remains enormously elusive so before it can be observed in much detail a way has to be worked out how to contain it
You're not confusing with neutrinos are you?
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:04 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
surreptitious57 wrote:Point Number One : light does not bend as james thinks it does but merely gives the appearance of doing so. Since it actually travels on a
geodesic as hack said which is a straight line in three dimensional non Euclidean space. So it is in fact nothing more than an optical illusion

Point Number Two : dark matter can not clump together like standard matter can for it actually passes through it and this is why it is next to impossible to
trap any. It is therefore significantly less restricted in physical capability and in that particular respect has the same property as radiation which also passes
through standard matter. The supreme irony is that dark matter routinely passes through Earth but can not be studied for any great length of time. Physicists
have managed to isolate some of it but it remains enormously elusive so before it can be observed in much detail a way has to be worked out how to contain it
You're not confusing with neutrinos are you?
WIMPs (one of the proposed models for dark matter) share some properties with neutrinos. They can pass through normal matter and are unaffected by electromagnetic radiation. Their only interaction is via the weak force - hence the name Weakly Interacting Massive Particle. They are far more massive than neutrinos though - around 100GeV, roughly comparable to the Higgs boson.

Of course, this is merely one of a long list of candidate particles... :tea:
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:05 pm

:tup:
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by jamest » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:24 pm

Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
jamest wrote:
mistermack wrote:James, I can't claim to have followed every word of this discussion, or any great knowledge on the subject. But I'll just hazard a comment anyway.

You write that ''matter clumps together'' but are missing the fact that lots of matter doesn't clump together. It needs a certain density to start clumping, as in molecular clouds of gas and dust.
Even then, often nothing happens, till you get something like a supernova which blasts out energy in a shockwave and compresses local clouds enough that they can start to clump together.
If the temperature of the gas cloud isn't low enough, and the mass of the cloud isn't great enough, the gas cloud can just stay in balance for billions of years. The heat energy is enough to prevent a gravity collapse.

I would think that it's perfectly possible for dark matter to be so thinly distributed that it's not going to ever clump together, in time-frames of just a few billion years.
The problem with that is that there's more than four times the mass of dark matter relative to visible matter, yet visible matter has evidently clumped together. If the gravitational affect of visible matter sufficed to facilitate its clumping together, then there can be no good reason why dark matter should remain evenly distributed throughout.
You are assuming here that something that is not understood and with which we have no experience will (for some reason that you found in your arse) behave in exactly the same way as the matter with which we are familiar.

What part of "Nobody knows what it is or how it does what it does" don't you get? :banghead:
I haven't assumed anything. I'm using information from the models, which attribute dark matter with mass (over 4 times as much as visible matter) and the same gravitational affects as visible matter. As such, given the effect gravity has upon spacetime, dark matter would be 'forced' to clump together just like visible matter. The only way I can be wrong is if the models are fundamentally wrong.

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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by jamest » Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:27 pm

surreptitious57 wrote: Physicists have managed to isolate some of it
Massive pork pie alert.

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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:13 pm

jamest wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:
jamest wrote:
mistermack wrote:James, I can't claim to have followed every word of this discussion, or any great knowledge on the subject. But I'll just hazard a comment anyway.

You write that ''matter clumps together'' but are missing the fact that lots of matter doesn't clump together. It needs a certain density to start clumping, as in molecular clouds of gas and dust.
Even then, often nothing happens, till you get something like a supernova which blasts out energy in a shockwave and compresses local clouds enough that they can start to clump together.
If the temperature of the gas cloud isn't low enough, and the mass of the cloud isn't great enough, the gas cloud can just stay in balance for billions of years. The heat energy is enough to prevent a gravity collapse.

I would think that it's perfectly possible for dark matter to be so thinly distributed that it's not going to ever clump together, in time-frames of just a few billion years.
The problem with that is that there's more than four times the mass of dark matter relative to visible matter, yet visible matter has evidently clumped together. If the gravitational affect of visible matter sufficed to facilitate its clumping together, then there can be no good reason why dark matter should remain evenly distributed throughout.
You are assuming here that something that is not understood and with which we have no experience will (for some reason that you found in your arse) behave in exactly the same way as the matter with which we are familiar.

What part of "Nobody knows what it is or how it does what it does" don't you get? :banghead:
I haven't assumed anything. I'm using information from the models, which attribute dark matter with mass (over 4 times as much as visible matter) and the same gravitational affects as visible matter. As such, given the effect gravity has upon spacetime, dark matter would be 'forced' to clump together just like visible matter. The only way I can be wrong is if the models are fundamentally wrong.
Or, as has been explained to you numerous times already, it is uniformly distributed. :yawn:
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by PsychoSerenity » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:34 pm

jamest wrote:I haven't assumed anything. I'm using information from the models, which attribute dark matter with mass (over 4 times as much as visible matter) and the same gravitational affects as visible matter. As such, given the effect gravity has upon spacetime, dark matter would be 'forced' to clump together just like visible matter. The only way I can be wrong is if the models are fundamentally wrong.
You're assuming an awful lot. Primarily you're assuming that you know far more of what there is to know about physics than you actually do. Then you're assuming that you philosophising about it will be sufficient to fill the gaps in your knowledge. It won't.

In particular you seem to be assuming that gravity alone is what causes normal matter to form into planets etc, missing the point that the theoretical particles that are potential candidates for dark matter are assumed to usually pass right through entire planets without interacting with another particle. They would be no more 'forced to clump together' than you would be able to rugby tackle a ghost.
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]

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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Mar 23, 2015 6:23 pm

It doesn't really matter.

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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by klr » Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:04 pm

klr wrote:
Xamonas Chegwé wrote:You're UK based, aren't you, James? Did you happen to watch the Horizon program about DM a few nights back? If not, catch it on iPlayer. It presents a lot of the evidence in layman's terms.

And fitting ones theories to observed facts about the universe is not "desperate". It's the very basis of science. It's why Einstein's theory of gravity supplanted Newton's. Why we no longer think that the planets circle the Earth on mysterious "spheres" that cause their erratic movement. And why we no longer sacrifice virgins to volcano gods. :tea:
I'm recording the repeat of this right now.

But I need to catch up on the "Stargazing ..." programs first, amongst other things.
Just watching it now. Narrated by David Mitchell, which is good sign. It will be informative, but off-beat. :dance:
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by Rum » Tue Mar 24, 2015 7:55 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science ... lider.html


Big Bang theory could be debunked by Large Hadron Collider

Scientists at Cern could prove the controversial theory of ‘rainbow gravity’ which suggests that the universe stretches back into time infinitely, with no Big Bang


Sarah Knapton
By Sarah Knapton, Science Editor


The detection of miniature black holes by the Large Hadron Collider could prove the existence of parallel universes and show that the Big Bang did not happen, scientists believe.


The particle accelerator, which will be restarted this week, has already found the Higgs boson – the God Particle – which is thought to give mass to other particles.


Now scientists at Cern in Switzerland believe they might find miniature black holes which would reveal the existence of a parallel universe.


And if the holes are found at a certain energy, it could prove the controversial theory of ‘rainbow gravity’ which suggests that the universe stretches back into time infinitely with no singular point where it started, and no Big Bang.


The theory was postulated to reconcile Einstein’s theory of general relativity – which deals with very large objects, and quantum mechanics – which looks at the tiniest building blocks of the universe. It takes its name from a suggestion that gravity's effect on the cosmos is felt differently by varying wavelengths of light.


The huge amounts of energy needed to make ‘rainbow gravity’ would mean that the early universe was very different. One result would be that if you retrace time backward, the universe gets denser, approaching an infinite density but never quite reaching it.

The effect of rainbow gravity is small for objects like the Earth but it is significant and measurable for black holes. It could be detected by the Large Hadron Collider if it picks up or creates black holes within the accelerator.

“We have calculated the energy at which we expect to detect these mini black holes in gravity's rainbow [a new theory]. If we do detect mini black holes at this energy, then we will know that both gravity's rainbow and extra dimensions are correct, Dr Mir Faizal told Phys.org.

• Did the Big Bang create a parallel universe where time goes backwards?
• Large Hadron Collider to launch again in dark matter quest
• The sound of science: Higgs boson data turned into music at CERN
• Pictures reveal bigger and better Large Hadron Collider

The second run of the LHC will begin this week and the beams are expected to go full circle on Wednesday for the first time since the 27km accelerator was shut down in early 2013 for an upgrade.

When it is fired up it will smash protons together at nearly double the energy that was used to find the Higgs boson.

Rolf Heuer, Director General of CERN, said the switch-on would create ‘a new era for physics’ which could also shed light on dark matter, dark energy and super-symmetry.

“I want to see the first light in the dark universe. If that happens, then nature is kind to me.”

Scientists believe they could find the first proof of alternative realities that exist outside out own universe.

It is even possible that gravity from our own universe may ‘leak’ into this parallel universe, scientists at the LHC say.

“Just as many parallel sheets of paper, which are two dimensional objects [breadth and length] can exist in a third dimension [height], parallel universes can also exist in higher dimensions,” added Dr Faizal,

“We predict that gravity can leak into extra dimensions, and if it does, then miniature black holes can be produced at the LHC.

“Normally, when people think of the multiverse, they think of the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, where every possibility is actualised.

"This cannot be tested and so it is philosophy and not science.

“This is not what we mean by parallel universes. What we mean is real universes in extra dimensions.

“As gravity can flow out of our universe into the extra dimensions, such a model can be tested by the detection of mini black holes at the LHC.”

The Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has undergone important upgrades and repairs over the past two years since the first shutdown.

The particle collider boasts new magnets, superior cryogenics, higher voltage and higher energy beams that will allow the machine to run at nearly double the collision energy of the first run.

The first circulating beams of protons in the LHC are planned for the week beginning 23 March, and by late May to early June the LHC aims to be running at 13 TeV.

Frances Saunders, president of the IOP, said, “This has been a massive effort by all the scientists and engineers at CERN to upgrade the LHC and its detectors and get it ready to operate at almost double the collision energies of the first run.

“As well as allowing greater study of the Higgs boson there is much anticipation amongst the physics community as to what else may be found at these higher energies, testing our theories and understanding of concepts such as supersymmetry and potentially giving greater insight into the 95 per cent of the universe that is composed of dark matter and dark energy.”

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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:32 am

Therefore God.
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Re: Wtf is dark matter?

Post by pErvinalia » Tue Mar 24, 2015 8:58 am

Great stuff, Rum. The LHC is the shit! What a time to be alive! Although, when they create a black hole, the whole universe is going to end. Damn. :(
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