Blasphemy

[Seth]

Rev -Why would they? The blowback against Russia is bad enough lately, and not all of it is because of Ukraine. What if the American public became furious about what Russia did, instead of divided about what Snowden did? Suppose the people of other nations were aware of just how badly their own countries were damaged (it wasn't just the US!), rather than being left alone to wag their fingers at the US for its spying? Really, if you were Russia, would you want to concentrate the focus of the US and all its allies on you, a Cold War 2.0? Or would you want to keep people grumbling about US imperialism? No way... when you pull off a coup of this magnitude, you don't go bragging about it.

And on the other side, why wouldn't Washington admit to just how disastrous the damage was? Because in a world loaded with opportunistic rivals you don't advertise just how weakened you've become due something like that. Just like a business doesn't voluntarily advertise that they've become financially unstable or their products might not be reliable.
Besides, people just don't believe accusations much, even from a President. But they'll believe a confession (or a leak) from lots of people, especially if their first impression is that he's a noble "whistle-blower".

I'm actually quite surprised that Snowden is still alive in Russia. After all, dead men tell no tales. I expect him to get hit by a bus any day now.

[pErvinalia]

There's a new revelation today out of his material. The US and UK stole SIM card encryption from a major manufacturer, allowing them to spy on certain mobile communications illegally at will. I can't remember what all his other allegations were, but I seem to remember them involving illegal actions by the US government. Basically Seth is supporting a Big Brother State over an individual who showed that the state is out of control. A couple of the State's agents got killed, and Seth has sympathy for the State. As I said, you are no libertarian, Seth.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-20/s ... en/6161364

Depends on whether you see espionage against our enemies to be "illegal actions."

Since out enemies are not engaged in peaceable activities and have initiated both force and fraud against the United States, our self-defense retaliation and spying is perfectly appropriate.

The State stealing encryption keys is ok? Yes, you heard it first from Ratz's own "libertarian".

Secondly, as I pointed out earlier, libertarianism is concerned with individuals, not nation states. You aren't a libertarian. You are a selfish nationalist. I.e. a fascist.

[pErvinalia]

Rev -Why would they? The blowback against Russia is bad enough lately, and not all of it is because of Ukraine. What if the American public became furious about what Russia did, instead of divided about what Snowden did? Suppose the people of other nations were aware of just how badly their own countries were damaged (it wasn't just the US!), rather than being left alone to wag their fingers at the US for its spying? Really, if you were Russia, would you want to concentrate the focus of the US and all its allies on you, a Cold War 2.0? Or would you want to keep people grumbling about US imperialism? No way... when you pull off a coup of this magnitude, you don't go bragging about it.

And on the other side, why wouldn't Washington admit to just how disastrous the damage was? Because in a world loaded with opportunistic rivals you don't advertise just how weakened you've become due something like that. Just like a business doesn't voluntarily advertise that they've become financially unstable or their products might not be reliable.
Besides, people just don't believe accusations much, even from a President. But they'll believe a confession (or a leak) from lots of people, especially if their first impression is that he's a noble "whistle-blower".

This is all possible. The problem is, it's a conspiracy theory. Why should I be inclined to believe this conspiracy theory any more than I should believe the conspiracy theory that the Jews carried out 9/11?

[Seth]

There's a new revelation today out of his material. The US and UK stole SIM card encryption from a major manufacturer, allowing them to spy on certain mobile communications illegally at will. I can't remember what all his other allegations were, but I seem to remember them involving illegal actions by the US government. Basically Seth is supporting a Big Brother State over an individual who showed that the state is out of control. A couple of the State's agents got killed, and Seth has sympathy for the State. As I said, you are no libertarian, Seth.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-02-20/s ... en/6161364

Depends on whether you see espionage against our enemies to be "illegal actions."

Since out enemies are not engaged in peaceable activities and have initiated both force and fraud against the United States, our self-defense retaliation and spying is perfectly appropriate.

The State stealing encryption keys is ok?

Depends on whose encryption keys they are and how they are used.

[pErvinalia]

Go the State!!

[JimC]

It seems Americans are particularly prone to the "my country right or wrong" syndrome.

Much of the rest of the world regards you as bully boys, but you simply don't see it...

[pErvinalia]

It's one thing to be an American Exceptionalist like a few are on these boards, but it's another level of wrongness to be a supposedly "libertarian" American Exceptionalist. That's a total oxymoron.

[Seth]

It seems Americans are particularly prone to the "my country right or wrong" syndrome.

Much of the rest of the world regards you as bully boys, but you simply don't see it...

That's because we are right, and we have the strength of ten because our cause is just. What we see is a bunch of savages who need to be pacified and civilized...or exterminated for the good of all mankind. And because we have the most powerful military on the planet (so far) we don't really care what uncivilized savages think of us, because we are exceptional.

[pErvinalia]

It seems Americans are particularly prone to the "my country right or wrong" syndrome.

Much of the rest of the world regards you as bully boys, but you simply don't see it...

That's because we are right, and we have the strength of ten because our cause is just.

What happened to everyone's inalienable organic natural rights, Mr Libertarian?? Now they don't matter because all of a sudden you support the concept of "might makes right", despite arguing directly against that for years?

What we see is a bunch of savages who need to be pacified and civilized...or exterminated for the good of all mankind. And because we have the most powerful military on the planet (so far) we don't really care what uncivilized savages think of us, because we are exceptional.

As I say, you definitely aren't a libertarian.

[rainbow]

It seems Americans are particularly prone to the "my country right or wrong" syndrome.

Much of the rest of the world regards you as bully boys, but you simply don't see it...

That's because we are right, and we have the strength of ten because our cause is just. What we see is a bunch of savages who need to be pacified and civilized...or exterminated for the good of all mankind. And because we have the most powerful military on the planet (so far) we don't really care what uncivilized savages think of us, because we are exceptional.

You do realise that you've lost nearly every war that you've been involved in since WW2.

I think the exception was Grenada.
A mighty nation of 100 000 people.

[piscator]

Since we're using the WWII standard of "Won"...Do you realize Australia would have "Lost" WWII were it left to its own devices?

[klr]

It seems Americans are particularly prone to the "my country right or wrong" syndrome.

Much of the rest of the world regards you as bully boys, but you simply don't see it...

No, I suspect most countries are prone to that. Try telling the Chinese that they should protest less at the Japanese, and look in more detail at the evils perpetrated by their own leaders. Nationalism is a very useful way of making the populace direct its anger outwards.

The Russians of course think that they are above reproach, and everyone is just ganging up on them.

[JimC]

It seems Americans are particularly prone to the "my country right or wrong" syndrome.

Much of the rest of the world regards you as bully boys, but you simply don't see it...

No, I suspect most countries are prone to that. Try telling the Chinese that they should protest less at the Japanese, and look in more detail at the evils perpetrated by their own leaders. Nationalism is a very useful way of making the populace direct its anger outwards.

The Russians of course think that they are above reproach, and everyone is just ganging up on them.

Sure, the Yanks aren't the only ones to be one-eyed patriots, but they are also the most prone to regard the American Way as self-evidently the epitome of civilisation...

[Seth]

It seems Americans are particularly prone to the "my country right or wrong" syndrome.

Much of the rest of the world regards you as bully boys, but you simply don't see it...

No, I suspect most countries are prone to that. Try telling the Chinese that they should protest less at the Japanese, and look in more detail at the evils perpetrated by their own leaders. Nationalism is a very useful way of making the populace direct its anger outwards.

The Russians of course think that they are above reproach, and everyone is just ganging up on them.

Sure, the Yanks aren't the only ones to be one-eyed patriots, but they are also the most prone to regard the American Way as self-evidently the epitome of civilisation...which, of course, it is!

[JimC]

QED...