So... the First Great Atheist Holy War, who's up for it?

[JimC]

Even though I agree that piscator was misleading in his choice of %, from the data he shows, there is enough support amongst muslims for Sharia Law, and executing apostates to be deeply, deeply worrying. There is a tendency for some on the liberal left to wave their hands in the air, and proclaim that the vast majority of muslims are prepared to live and let live, and it's only a tiny minority that are an issue, and that any criticism of islam is always horrible, racist islamophobia.

Not so...

[piscator]

Roundhouse, from going by the way Pew watered down the question and biases for respondents who had working phones and the free time to answer 97 questions about Islam in the world, most likely female-heavy and likely to be not only more educated, but more willing to say what they think others want to hear. I suspect places like Egypt, Iraq, and Niger have less women respondents. Moreover, it's hard to get 88-91% of people to agree they like a cool breeze on a hot day, so it's probably perceived as a matter of Scripture in both Shiiteland and the countries bitten by the Salafi bug.

In short, the PEW report does not say anything like "74% of all Muslims polled think death is the proper punishment for renouncing Islam." You just made it up, then claimed that the result can be inferred after making some "adjustments".

You could teach Phil Jones a lesson or two in creative data massaging. With your assistance he'll soon have a model running that predicts global warming in the 8 - 12°C range by 2065.

Show me Pew's methodology and raw numbers, and I'll show you where the problems are in their dataset, and they'll agree. They know it's not perfect.

For those who haven't done much statistics, running datasets through standard formula and noting and perhaps acting on the output of those formula falls somewhere short of, "Massaging" data to run a worldwide conspiracy.

[Hermit]

"...that any criticism of islam is always horrible, racist islamophobia." That is definitely not a view I share. Fudging figures, however, no matter who does it, is not a good thing to do in my book, especially when it is done in a sneaky, underhanded way. Thus I am not impressed by Piscator when he claims that 74% of all Muslims polled think death is the proper punishment for renouncing Islam. The claim appears nowhere in the 219 page report he linked to. An honest way to make the claim would be to declare that it is something he inferred from it, and describe how he did it.

I actually agree that the published results are skewed. You are hardly going to poll villagers around the upper Nile area by phone, and they are arguably less educated and more fundamentalist, but coming up with a concrete percentage like he has reeks of pulling something out of the air. His method, as he belatedly told us about, does not provide any means to quantify it the way he has done.

As for your claim "that the vast majority of muslims are prepared to live and let live, and it's only a tiny minority that are an issue" is not true, you seem to live in your own fact-free bubble. The vast majority of Muslims reject the notion that suicide bombings are justified. Even in the two areas where support for such bombing is greatest, it peaks at 40%. Only 4 of the20 countries listed have support for suicide bombers above the teens, and in 9 it is in the single digit range. From PEW once again:

[Hermit]

Show me Pew's methodology and raw numbers, and I'll show you where the problems are in their dataset, and they'll agree. They know it's not perfect.

We all know it's not perfect. As for me providing the data you base your claims on? What? It's incumbent on you to to do so, and mapping the path you have travelled in order to get to where you said you did.

...running datasets through standard formula and noting and perhaps acting on the output of those formula falls somewhere short of, "Massaging" data to run a worldwide conspiracy.

Running datasets through standard formulae is something you manifestly have not done. I mean, would you need to ask me for the data if you had them?

[JimC]

Hermit wrote:

As for your claim "that the vast majority of muslims are prepared to live and let live, and it's only a tiny minority that are an issue" is not true, you seem to live in your own fact-free bubble. The vast majority of Muslims reject the notion that suicide bombings are justified. Even in the two areas where support for such bombing is greatest, it peaks at 40%. Only 4 of the20 countries listed have support for suicide bombers above the teens, and in 9 it is in the single digit range. From PEW once again:

It was support for sharia law and the killing of apostates whose relatively high percentages amongst muslims give the lie to "a tiny proportion of muslims"; I did not mention suicide bombing, but surely saying that those who leave islam should be killed is a cause for concern. That % is variable, sure, but still quite high in many countries.

Having said that, I would expect that the percentages for muslims living in Oz, for example, would be a lot lower.

[piscator]

Show me Pew's methodology and raw numbers, and I'll show you where the problems are in their dataset, and they'll agree. They know it's not perfect.

We all know it's not perfect. As for me providing the data you base your claims on? What? It's incumbent on you to to do so, and mapping the path you have travelled in order to get to where you said you did.

...running datasets through standard formula and noting and perhaps acting on the output of those formula falls somewhere short of, "Massaging" data to run a worldwide conspiracy.

Running datasets through standard formulae is something you manifestly have not done. I mean, would you need to ask me for the data if you had them?

You ain't writing no book. I posted my methods. But the fact remains that no one here is going to talk a shitpot full of Muslims out of their beliefs, but my tax dollars are going to grind a bunch of them into dog food because they believe theocracy is best and their beliefs compel them to spread it.

[Hermit]

As for your claim "that the vast majority of muslims are prepared to live and let live, and it's only a tiny minority that are an issue" is not true, you seem to live in your own fact-free bubble. The vast majority of Muslims reject the notion that suicide bombings are justified. Even in the two areas where support for such bombing is greatest, it peaks at 40%. Only 4 of the20 countries listed have support for suicide bombers above the teens, and in 9 it is in the single digit range. From PEW once again:

It was support for sharia law and the killing of apostates whose relatively high percentages amongst muslims give the lie to "a tiny proportion of muslims"; I did not mention suicide bombing, but surely saying that those who leave islam should be killed is a cause for concern. That % is variable, sure, but still quite high in many countries.

Having said that, I would expect that the percentages for muslims living in Oz, for example, would be a lot lower.

Well, yes, I did shift the goal posts. The intent was to address the all too common opinion that most Muslims who are not actually terrorists are either supporters of Islamic terrorists or at least sympathise with them. This is demonstrably not the case.

[Hermit]

Show me Pew's methodology and raw numbers, and I'll show you where the problems are in their dataset, and they'll agree. They know it's not perfect.

We all know it's not perfect. As for me providing the data you base your claims on? What? It's incumbent on you to to do so, and mapping the path you have travelled in order to get to where you said you did.

...running datasets through standard formula and noting and perhaps acting on the output of those formula falls somewhere short of, "Massaging" data to run a worldwide conspiracy.

Running datasets through standard formulae is something you manifestly have not done. I mean, would you need to ask me for the data if you had them?

You ain't writing no book. I posted my methods. But the fact remains that no one here is going to talk a shitpot full of Muslims out of their beliefs, but my tax dollars are going to grind a bunch of them into dog food because they believe theocracy is best and their beliefs compel them to spread it.

That's a pretty subtle way of conceding that you have not done a statistical analysis of the polls, pulled a figure out of thin air instead and falsely claimed the report said 74% of all Muslims support the death penalty for apostasy. Your style is remarkable.

And of course you still have not provided how you quantified your own guess. References to cool breezes on a hot day and the number of questions asked don't cut it.

[JimC]

Hermit wrote:

Well, yes, I did shift the goal posts. The intent was to address the all too common opinion that most Muslims who are not actually terrorists are either supporters of Islamic terrorists or at least sympathise with them. This is demonstrably not the case.

For muslims living in the west that is probably fair enough, although the small jihadist minority can wreak damage out of all proportion to their numbers.

However, I doubt you could say it was "demonstrably not the case" in Yemen, Somalia or Pakistan, to name only 3... Sympathisers of terrorism there may not be a majority, but neither are they an insignificant, tiny minority...

[piscator]

... Indeed, a nontrivial %.

I could also stake out a nontrivial percentage of the earth's surface where >74% of the residents think scripture backs the killing of those who leave Islam. Suffice to say a lot of Muslims have very practical reasons to remain Muslim.

[Stein]

... Indeed, a nontrivial %.

It is not trivial. You perpetrated a brazen lie on this board because you're both a liar and a pathetic bigot. Stop dumping your racist and shamelessly manufactured filth on this board. It's called trolling.

Thank you,

Stein

[Brian Peacock]

[piscator]

... Indeed, a nontrivial %.

It is not trivial. You perpetrated a brazen lie on this board because you're both a liar and a pathetic bigot. Stop dumping your racist and shamelessly manufactured filth on this board. It's called trolling.

Thank you,

Stein

If you hold the Muwatta as hadith, you believe in death for apostasy. If you want to behave like a nasty little cunt about it, I'll treat you like one.

[Brian Peacock]

Still waiting Stein.

[JimC]

Just call him Gertrude...