It just gets better and better for gun owners

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Seth
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Re: It just gets better and better for gun owners

Post by Seth » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:45 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:Why are you calling me an idiot? I thought you were agreeing that every nutjob on the planet should be armed. :tea:
Nope. I'm saying that until a person is adjudicated to be a "nutjob" by a court of law, after a hearing at which neutral mental health professionals who have examined the individual for symptoms of mental illness that would render that person a risk to himself or others if armed, testify to the mental defect and establish it beyond a reasonable doubt, every adult enjoys the a priori assumption of competence unless and until they demonstrate otherwise by reason of mental defect or criminal activity.

The problem with your statement is that your definition of "nutjob" is, I'm quite certain, extremely broad and includes everyone who has not been examined by mental health professionals and adjudicate by a court of law to NOT be a risk to himself or others if armed, which in your estimation probably includes literally everyone who is not a professional soldier or law enforcement official.

Hoplophobes operate from the position of a priori prior restraint on the exercise of a fundamental human right and would deny arms to everyone except those who can "prove" they have a "need" to be armed and can "prove" that they are mentally competent to be armed. The problem with this system is that "need" is a subjective term, as is "mentally competent to be armed," and precisely those sorts of judgments have been used by those who issue permits for gun and/or to carry them, and in most cases those authorities, for personal, philosophical or political reasons, refuse to approve almost everyone simply because they can.

Since in the past the usual arbiter of a citizen's "need" to carry a gun was a police department official, and since police department officials (not line officers) worldwide have an inbred bias against an armed citizenry, until the "shall issue" movement came along, it was extremely rare for the average citizen to obtain a CCW permit, or, in the case of places like DC, NYC and Chicago, a permit to even own a handgun.

It was this ubiquitous abuse of authority to deny law-abiding citizens the right to have or carry firearms for self defense that fomented the "shall issue" movement, which has been incredibly successful, with all 50 states now being compelled to provide at least some sort of licensing system for concealed carry, with Illinois being the final holdout that was ordered by the federal courts to do so.

This doesn't mean that all jurisdictions have "shall issue" laws, but the majority (more than 40 states) do. Those that don't are continuing to be recalcitrant and obstructive to the maximum extent possible, and they get sued again and again as gun-rights advocates chip away at their repeated attempts to weasel around the 2nd Amendment and deny their citizens their fundamental human rights. The District of Columbia, NYC, California and Chicago are the most notorious and egregious violators of citizens civil rights, but they are, as the article shows, continuing to lose in court. Eventually I expect a federal preemption law that will command CCW permit reciprocity in all 50 states.

In sum, the reason I disagree with you is that you are engaging in smarmy evasions with flip and dismissive comments that show no scholarship or erudition, much less reason or logic, with respect to a very important subject you are entirely unwilling and incapable of discussing reasonably and rationally and because I'm way smarter than you are I refuse to rise to your bait.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by klr » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:48 pm

Well, guess where this thread has migrated to ...
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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by Seth » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:52 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
JimC wrote:Let's take it to the limit!

No regulation at all!

Just got out of the asylum?

Get yourself a Saturday night special, no checking allowed! After all, you are a citizen with rights, and we need you to oppose the tyranny of government!
Ed Zachary! And it's not just "rights", it's fundamental in/un-alienable rights!! No one has the right to stop a paranoid schizophrenic from their natural right to defense!!
No, they don't, unless and until he or she misuses that right.
Is the right fundamental or not? Doesn't sound very fundamental to me. :tea:
Come try to take that right away from me yourself and you'll find out exactly how fundamental it is, right before everything goes black for you forever.

Just because it's fundamental doesn't mean it cannot be regulated or suspended based on your inability to exercise it in a peaceable and responsible manner. "Fundamental" means that neither you nor the collective (government) shall deny me the reasonable and peaceable exercise of that right as a matter of prior restraint based on someone's fear that I might misuse or abuse that right. You actually have to wait until I do abuse it and then you can only deny me the free exercise of that right after providing me with due process and a fair trial of my peers that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that I have abused my exercise of that right and cannot therefore be trusted to properly enjoy it in the future without creating an undue and unreasonable risk to the public.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by Seth » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:52 pm

klr wrote:Well, guess where this thread has migrated to ...
Purdah?

Mods are fuckwits.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:58 pm

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
JimC wrote:Let's take it to the limit!

No regulation at all!

Just got out of the asylum?

Get yourself a Saturday night special, no checking allowed! After all, you are a citizen with rights, and we need you to oppose the tyranny of government!
Ed Zachary! And it's not just "rights", it's fundamental in/un-alienable rights!! No one has the right to stop a paranoid schizophrenic from their natural right to defense!!
No, they don't, unless and until he or she misuses that right.
Is the right fundamental or not? Doesn't sound very fundamental to me. :tea:
Come try to take that right away from me yourself and you'll find out exactly how fundamental it is, right before everything goes black for you forever.

Just because it's fundamental doesn't mean it cannot be regulated or suspended based on your inability to exercise it in a peaceable and responsible manner.
It's not fundamental then, is it?
"Fundamental" means that neither you nor the collective (government) shall deny me the reasonable
Oh, "reasonable". That makes it so much more clear then. So depending on one's ideology (or lack thereof) "reasonable" will mean different things to different people. Your objective rights are getting less and less objective by the hour.
and peaceable exercise of that right as a matter of prior restraint based on someone's fear that I might misuse or abuse that right. You actually have to wait until I do abuse it and then you can only deny me the free exercise of that right after providing me with due process and a fair trial of my peers that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that I have abused my exercise of that right and cannot therefore be trusted to properly enjoy it in the future without creating an undue and unreasonable risk to the public.
Yet you accept that certain sick people need to be quarantined when they have done nothing wrong to anyone else yet. Interesting how your "fundamental" rights change depending on the "right" under discussion. :ask: :coffee:
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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Feb 15, 2015 11:59 pm

Seth wrote:
klr wrote:Well, guess where this thread has migrated to ...
Purdah?

Mods are fuckwits.
How to make friends and influence people... :roll:

You do realise the mods have the RIGHT to sanction you and suspend you, right? You're not the sharpest knife in the draw, are you?
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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:00 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
klr wrote:Well, guess where this thread has migrated to ...
Purdah?

Mods are fuckwits.
How to make friends and influence people... :roll:

You do realise the mods have the right to sanction you and suspend you, right? You're not the sharpest knife in the draw, are you?
Did I attack anyone personally? Nope. I was making a general observation about mods which applies to every forum on the planet.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:04 am

:fp: And this is why you get banned from every forum. You think your interlocutors are idiots, when in fact it is you who is the idiot.
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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:13 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
Just because it's fundamental doesn't mean it cannot be regulated or suspended based on your inability to exercise it in a peaceable and responsible manner.
It's not fundamental then, is it?
Of course it is.
"Fundamental" means that neither you nor the collective (government) shall deny me the reasonable
Oh, "reasonable". That makes it so much more clear then. So depending on one's ideology (or lack thereof) "reasonable" will mean different things to different people. Your objective rights are getting less and less objective by the hour.
Don't be a dunce. I said "fundamental" not "objective." You're making up strawmen again.

My right to keep and bear arms does not happen to include the right to go about randomly shooting people. It's a "freedom of action that may be defended against intrusion by others." It's fundamental because it derives from my organic right to life, which derives from the entirely objective and natural First Organic Law: "All living organisms seek to survive." It's unalienable because it cannot be take from me without some wrongful action on my part.

My right to shoot someone is not as fundamental as my right to be armed. Merely carrying a gun harms no one and infringes on no other person's rights, any more than carrying a purse or wearing a hat does. My right to shoot someone is quite narrow in fact and extends only to shooting people who, in my reasonable belief, have placed my life or the life of another in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and I reasonably believe that a lesser degree of force will be inadequate to prevent that harm.


and peaceable exercise of that right as a matter of prior restraint based on someone's fear that I might misuse or abuse that right. You actually have to wait until I do abuse it and then you can only deny me the free exercise of that right after providing me with due process and a fair trial of my peers that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that I have abused my exercise of that right and cannot therefore be trusted to properly enjoy it in the future without creating an undue and unreasonable risk to the public.
Yet you accept that certain sick people need to be quarantined when they have done nothing wrong to anyone else yet. Interesting how your "fundamental" rights change depending on the "right" under discussion. :ask: :coffee:
Incorrect. A person with a dangerous communicable disease may be quarantined if they refuse to stop initiating force by exporting harm to others by excreting infectious organisms.

Having AIDS is not a crime. Having unprotected sex, swapping bodily fluids or donating blood when one is known to have AIDS may be a crime, particularly if the other person is not notified of your HIV-positive condition. If you refuse to stop having unprotected uninformed sex then you may be quarantined because YOUR ACTIONS have demonstrated that you are a danger to yourself or others.

The same is true of a person infected with, or who reasonably might be infected with Ebola. They may be quarantined to prevent them initiating force on others if they refuse to quarantine themselves voluntarily.

You see, nobody has a "right" to transmit communicable diseases to others.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by Seth » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:15 am

rEvolutionist wrote::fp: And this is why you get banned from every forum. You think your interlocutors are idiots, when in fact it is you who is the idiot.
Mods aren't interlocutors, they are mods, and most of them are petite tyrants. Here less so than in other places, but still, this "gun club" thing is idiocy, and therefore those who administer it are idiots.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:47 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
Just because it's fundamental doesn't mean it cannot be regulated or suspended based on your inability to exercise it in a peaceable and responsible manner.
It's not fundamental then, is it?
Of course it is.
"Fundamental" means that neither you nor the collective (government) shall deny me the reasonable
Oh, "reasonable". That makes it so much more clear then. So depending on one's ideology (or lack thereof) "reasonable" will mean different things to different people. Your objective rights are getting less and less objective by the hour.
Don't be a dunce. I said "fundamental" not "objective." You're making up strawmen again.
No I'm not. :fp: You fucking say it right below here. You've claimed your bollocks natural rights are objective for fucking years now. Twit.

It's fundamental because it derives from my organic right to life, which derives from the entirely objective and natural First Organic Law
My right to shoot someone is not as fundamental as my right to be armed. Merely carrying a gub harms no one and infringes on no other person's rights, any more than carrying a purse or wearing a hat does. My right to shoot someone is quite narrow in fact and extends only to shooting people who, in my reasonable belief, have placed my life or the life of another in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm and I reasonably believe that a lesser degree of force will be inadequate to prevent that harm.
FFS, are you incapable of sticking to the point at hand? The question is why should someone be refused your allegedly objective right to own a gun for defense, just because they are considered extremely mentally ill? Blathering on about your right to shoot this or that person is irrelevant.
and peaceable exercise of that right as a matter of prior restraint based on someone's fear that I might misuse or abuse that right. You actually have to wait until I do abuse it and then you can only deny me the free exercise of that right after providing me with due process and a fair trial of my peers that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that I have abused my exercise of that right and cannot therefore be trusted to properly enjoy it in the future without creating an undue and unreasonable risk to the public.
Yet you accept that certain sick people need to be quarantined when they have done nothing wrong to anyone else yet. Interesting how your "fundamental" rights change depending on the "right" under discussion. :ask: :coffee:
Incorrect. A person with a dangerous communicable disease may be quarantined if they refuse to stop initiating force by exporting harm to others by excreting infectious organisms.

Having AIDS is not a crime. Having unprotected sex, swapping bodily fluids or donating blood when one is known to have AIDS may be a crime, particularly if the other person is not notified of your HIV-positive condition. If you refuse to stop having unprotected uninformed sex then you may be quarantined because YOUR ACTIONS have demonstrated that you are a danger to yourself or others.

The same is true of a person infected with, or who reasonably might be infected with Ebola. They may be quarantined to prevent them initiating force on others if they refuse to quarantine themselves voluntarily.

You see, nobody has a "right" to transmit communicable diseases to others.
You seem totally incapable of understanding the most basic of points. The point is - a person with Ebola HASN'T HARMED ANYONE YET, just by being infected with Ebola. Under your bollocks beliefs, they should be free to exercise their right to free movement and association up until the point that they actually export some harm. THEN they have infringed on the rights of others, and THEN they can supposedly be stripped of their "fundamental" and "objective" rights.
Last edited by pErvinalia on Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:47 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote::fp: And this is why you get banned from every forum. You think your interlocutors are idiots, when in fact it is you who is the idiot.
Mods aren't interlocutors, they are mods, and most of them are petite tyrants. Here less so than in other places, but still, this "gub club" thing is idiocy, and therefore those who administer it are idiots.
QED.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:05 am

You can bluster and fume all you like, Seth, but every gun connected thread is going to the Gun Club sub-forum where people can more easily ignore them if they wish.
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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:37 am

What's with this "gub" shit? Surely we don't have to sink to that level, do we??
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: It just gets better and better for gub owners

Post by JimC » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:48 am

Shit, I just notice someone has been playing with the word-changer-thingy, so that g-u-n becomes gub...

:hehe:
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