Immigrants make you richer.

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Seth
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:38 am

laklak wrote:
Hermit wrote:I am where I am because I have worked for my money. Then I have invested the money I earnt with my labour, and the investments turned out to be good ones.
I did the same. Our only point of difference is what constitutes a "fair share" for tax purposes.

I realize that despite my not giving much of a shit about others, it is in my best interest to fund things like public education, roads, a military, etc.
Yup. It's called "rational self interest."
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:49 am

Blind groper wrote:One of the flaws in Seth's (and other libertarian's) "logic" is the assumption that those who make lots of money have achieved it through hard work and talent.
Strawman. I've never said any such thing and Libertarianism makes no such presumption at all. Libertarianism is about liberty, not economic success. Economics only enter into Libertarianism when it comes to how one achieves whatever one achieves and whether others are authorized to determine how the individual is permitted to enjoy the fruits of their labor or their property, which so long as it is gained without the initiation of force or fraud, is nobody's business but the parties to the transaction.
I am afraid that is only a little bit true. I have been a businessman. I ran my own business for 14 years, and made quite a lot of money. Sufficient so that I am now comfortably retired. But a lot of that was pure, sheer luck. Nor merit.

When a person sets out to make investments, or run a business, it does take work, and at least a little bit of know-how, but simple bad luck can utterly destroy it, and simple good luck can turn such a person into a millionnaire. Merit is definitely limited.
Yes, this is true. So what?
Socialism, within limits (and remember the balance I keep talking of) can be an equalising factor, to iron out the benefits some businesspeople get via very good luck.


"Equalizing" means "forcible redistribution of wealth to satisfy the greed and envy of those who are not successful."
In fact, where there is no socialism, there is widespread poverty.
As if there isn't widespread poverty in socialist/communist nations. You can't even buy toilet paper in Venezuela.
We have seen this in extreme right wing countries, such as existed in Chile and other South American nations.
Which have nothing whatever to do with Libertarianism. You keep conflating fascism with Libetarianism, which is a critical thinking failure.
The best countries in the world to live in today are all socialist to a degree. Not too much. Not too little. Countries such as Iceland, Sweden, Norway, and others like them consistently score at the top of international surveys of the best countries to live in.
For whom? The productive class whose labor is taxed away from them at rates exceeding 50% or for the dependent class who enjoy the fruits of that compulsory redistribution of wealth?

If you ask the socialist dependent class whether they like living in a socialist society where somebody else pays for their needs you're going to get a highly affirmative vote. If you ask the productive class you won't.

See what happens if the number of votes you're allowed to cast is based on your productive output subject to redistributionary taxation. If you take welfare and have no productive output subject to such taxation, you get no vote at all, as is right and just because you are a dependent who must not be allowed to vote to take other people's property for your own benefit.

Robert Heinlein wrote about this sort of society in Starship Troopers and other novels where one had to do public service to earn the right to vote in elections. You could refuse public service of course, but that made you a prole who had no say in politics or economic policy.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:53 am

Blind groper wrote:Yes, a little know how is important. But luck is always a factor too. The whole point I am making is simply that being wealthy is not 100% due to virtue, and being poor is not always the fault of the person who is poor. Unlike Seth, it is important that we show a little empathy and understanding for those who have not managed to make themselves wealthy.
And I've never said anything different. Ever.
Having the right parents also helps, and that is pure luck. Royalty, for example, simply means being descended from the most successful gangsters.
Yup.
I certainly do not advocate extreme socialism. But a little socialism is needed to level out the inequities in society.
And there it is...selfishness, greed, envy, jealous and the thieve's mentality all wrapped up into one succinct recycling of Marx's Communist Manifesto.

Now please explain to me why it is that the good fortune or hard work of another entitles you or anyone else to redistribute their wealth?
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:56 am

Seth wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:
Hermit wrote:Working for your money and getting a return on investments you have used the money you have worked for equals stealing in the lolbertardian scheme of things? :mrgreen:
You got where you are because your socialist society gave you the fruits of other people's labor without their consent.
I am where I am because I have worked for my money. Then I have invested the money I earnt with my labour, and the investments turned out to be good ones.
Then you are a slave to your Marxist socialist masters and you have my pity.

You see, Libertarianism isn't about being wealthy, it's about being free.
You started off this particular part of the discussion by claiming that I have stolen the money That I do have. You elaborated on that by claiming that I got where I am because my socialist society gave me the fruits of other people's labour without its consent. Now that I reiterated that having earnt my money through my own labour and then investing it with good results - hardly a condition that constitutes stealing or obtaining money without society's consent in the general lolbertardian scheme of things - you turn around and say that lolbertardianism is not about money.

In short, when you had your claim shot down in flames, you took evasive action by moving the goal posts. "You socialist stole the money" becomes abandoned and totally dropped all of a sudden, to be replaced by an altogether different one, namely: "Lolbertardianism isn't about money. It's about freedom".

And you call yourself an intellectual giant with superior reasoning and debating skills. :funny:
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:02 am

Moving the goalposts is his standard tactic when the holes in his "logic" are exposed.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by cronus » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:05 am

rEvolutionist wrote:Moving the goalposts is his standard tactic when the holes in his "logic" are exposed.
Everyone does it these days. :nono:
What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:22 am

Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:
Hermit wrote:Working for your money and getting a return on investments you have used the money you have worked for equals stealing in the lolbertardian scheme of things? :mrgreen:
You got where you are because your socialist society gave you the fruits of other people's labor without their consent.
I am where I am because I have worked for my money. Then I have invested the money I earnt with my labour, and the investments turned out to be good ones.
Then you are a slave to your Marxist socialist masters and you have my pity.

You see, Libertarianism isn't about being wealthy, it's about being free.
You started off this particular part of the discussion by claiming that I have stolen the money That I do have.
You're as much the beneficiary of "stolen property" as you claim I or any other Libertarian is. More so in fact because you support a political and legal system that facilitates the forcible extraction of property from the few to serve the needs of the many, and you can't say you don't.
You elaborated on that by claiming that I got where I am because my socialist society gave me the fruits of other people's labour without its consent.
Yup. Absolutely and without question.
Now that I reiterated that having earnt my money through my own labour and then investing it with good results - hardly a condition that constitutes stealing or obtaining money without society's consent in the general lolbertardian scheme of things - you turn around and say that lolbertardianism is not about money.
Have you ever taken advantage of socialized medicine? Have you ever taken any money at all from the government for any reason, even as a child? Both of those things are provided to you by the involuntary servitude of others extracted by force by your government. You support this system of redistribution of wealth and you benefit from it, therefore you are the beneficiary of theft from others.
In short, when you had your claim shot down in flames, you took evasive action by moving the goal posts. "You socialist stole the money" becomes abandoned and totally dropped all of a sudden, to be replaced by an altogether different one, namely: "Lolbertardianism isn't about money. It's about freedom".
Not at all. That statement was in response to your personal invective with respect to my financial position. You demonstrated that you misunderstand Libertarianism as being an economic model. It's not. It's a philosophical, moral and ethical system of living in community. This obsession you all have with the idea that Libertarianism is about getting rich at other people's expense is either a manifestation of your own gross stupidity or a deliberate and willful position taken out of a lack of interest in intellectual rigor.

The economic component of Libertarianism is the free market and personal property rights, along with the duty to abide by contractual obligations and agreements.

Libertarianism doesn't care how wealthy or poor anyone is, it requires that every person be equally rich in the most essential components of life: liberty and property. Therefore, no one can take from you what is yours by force or fraud, no matter what your station in the economy is.
And you call yourself an intellectual giant with superior reasoning and debating skills. :funny:
Indeed. I'm so far above you in intellect, reasoning and debating that you can't even understand what's happening to you, much less rationally parse my arguments, which is what leads you to such infantile errors in reasoning as you have displayed here.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by rainbow » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:21 am

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Were they listened to when the Arapaho were forced out of Colorado at Sand Creek?

I assume you are familiar with the story, coming from that area?
Probably not. The Sand Creek Massacre was perpetrated by one John Chivington, who was a virulent Indian-hater and racist, who assembled a corps of militia, who were mostly Indian-hating racists (though several refused to participate in the slaughter of women and children), who were not very hard to find in the west at that time, given the fact that various Indian tribes (not including the Arapahoe and their chief, Black Kettle) were slaughtering and torturing settlers all over the west at the time.
Which as a Libertarian, I assume you'd agree the Native Americans had every right to do. Defending their property, and all that.
A good case study for Libertarianism.

My question remains (irrespective of who the guilty parties were).
If property rights are sacrosanct to Libertarianism, why aren't Libertarians fighting for the return of this property to their rightful owners?
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:24 am

Seth wrote:You're as much the beneficiary of "stolen property" as you claim I or any other Libertarian is. More so in fact because you support a political and legal system that facilitates the forcible extraction of property from the few to serve the needs of the many, and you can't say you don't.
What a curious train of thought. Let's say that all profit is theft, profit being the difference between what an employee gets paid in money and kind and the value of his/her labour. None of the money I received comes from the employment of others.

As for taxation, being the forcible extraction of property according to you, money is being stolen from me, rather than by me.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by mistermack » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:34 pm

Hermit wrote:Um, I didn't say that. ^^^ You fucked the quote tag up. Or you don't know how to spell "Seth".
Yeh, I did. Sorry about that.
I hope nobody confuses you with Seth as a result.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:35 pm

They're very similar.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:51 pm

rEvolutionist wrote:They're very similar.
You are an hypocritical bigot and have no idea what you are talking about. I am nothing like Seth. On the contrary, I'm so far above him in intellect, reasoning and debating that he can't even understand what's happening to him, much less rationally parse my arguments, which is what leads him and you to such infantile errors in reasoning as you have displayed here.

Get fucked.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by mistermack » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:55 pm

Hermit wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:They're very similar.
You are an hypocritical bigot and have no idea what you are talking about. I am nothing like Seth. On the contrary, I'm so far above him in intellect, reasoning and debating that he can't even understand what's happening to him, much less rationally parse my arguments, which is what leads him and you to such infantile errors in reasoning as you have displayed here.

Get fucked.
Was he serious? Have you two broken up?

Anyway, they're not in any way similar. Seth's a troll. His posts are for amusement only.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:57 pm

Hermit wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:They're very similar.
You are an hypocritical bigot and have no idea what you are talking about. I am nothing like Seth. On the contrary, I'm so far above him in intellect, reasoning and debating that he can't even understand what's happening to him, much less rationally parse my arguments, which is what leads him and you to such infantile errors in reasoning as you have displayed here.

Get fucked.
"Get fucked" fallacy. :coffee:
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:03 pm

Phallacy fallacy.


Fallacy, fallacah, fallalope, fallatrope...
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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