Immigrants make you richer.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:31 am

I don't know why I even bother interacting with BG and MM. Neither of them will ever change their mind on anything. At least BG forms his opinions from New Scientist magazine. Not that that's much to be proud of (that publication is a joke of pop science compared to what it used to be), but it's better than MM who forms his opinions from within the vacuum of his head.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:37 am

rEvolutionist wrote:I don't know why I even bother interacting with BG and MM.
You are addicted to the adrenalin rush caused by flying into a rage, that's why. :mrgreen:
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:42 am

The real reason is that I want to interact with someone. But only the dumb people are contributing much to the forum these days. So I'm stuck interacting with idiots. I'd love for some people to come back and/or some of you smarter people to start posting more content. Then I could get my interaction fix and ignore the idiots.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:51 am

rEvolutionist wrote:The real reason is that I want to interact with someone. But only the dumb people are contributing much to the forum these days. So I'm stuck interacting with idiots. I'd love for some people to come back and/or some of you smarter people to start posting more content. Then I could get my interaction fix and ignore the idiots.
Bullshit. You kept flying into rages right from the start when you joined almost five years ago and the exodus of the people you miss now lay in the future. I do remember your early and frequent dummy-spits because the target of one of the more spectacular episodes was me. :levi:
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:05 am

Yeah, but I'm calm(ish) now. I'm a much different person from even 3 yrs ago. Conservatives do make me rabid. But I consider that a feature, not a flaw.. :biggrin:
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:13 am

rEvolutionist wrote:@Seth, the real moral problem is descendatns getting something for free.


So what? If your daddy gives you $20 to go to the movies you're "getting something for free." Big deal. Who cares?

Why are you so hung up on someone getting something from someone else gratis that you aren't getting? Sounds a lot like jealousy, envy and greed to me.
I agree that there needs to be practical limitations on compensation, but it's not an even playing field. Let's say my great great great grandfather stole your ggg grandfather's wealth. Would you accept this as a fair situation and you were just going to let it go? I doubt very much most people would let it go, let alone someone with your selfish proclivities. Why should I have greater ease at accessing life's necessities than you, particularly because I did absolutely nothing to earn that access to greater ease?
Life is not an even playing field. Never has been, never will be. Ever. Get over it. Your socialist streak clouds your reason and enhances your cupidity without any rational basis. Just because someone else has something doesn't mean you can expect to get some too.

The point of Libertarian philosophy with respect to "getting something for free" is that, beyond it being nobody's business but the parties to the transaction, is that it's simply impossible to keep track of who got what for free after the people involved are dead. And it's nobody's business how one person gets the property of another so long as there is no force or fraud involved.

How do I know your grandfather stole my grandfather's wealth? Can I just say so and expect to be compensated? What about the facts of the case that might show that it wasn't a theft at all, but was part of a negotiated contract? How can one be expected to parse such things when the people involved are dead?

If my granddaddy stole your granddaddy's watch, does that mean that you can come to me and demand that I give you a watch? Hardly.

If society is to function members have to let go of the past and worry about today. If my grandfather didn't have an interest, or was simply unable to defend his property rights against your grandfather, why would that entitle me to make a later claim? If my grandfather wanted me to have his property he would have made provision for that in a contract or written instrument devising that property to me and he would have defended that possession against force or fraud by your grandaddy, using whatever force was required to prevent it. If he didn't, then I have no claim on the property, regardless of what your grandpa did to get it.

All that this sort of "getting something for free" thing causes is intergenerational conflict and muddying of the waters. Property belongs to the living and the invisible hands of the dead cannot be rationally allowed to dictate how society functions today, particularly when the wrongs and the claims for compensation are widely separated in time. Death is simply the appropriate statute of limitations for such claims provided that written agreements to the contrary were not created and filed away.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Seth » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:16 am

rEvolutionist wrote:It's a shame you aren't willing to actually learn anything. As has been made abundantly clear to you in this thread and others before it, Australia has a thin band of fertility alone the east, south east, and south west coast. That's where everyone lives and the vast majority of our food is produced. The rest, like the area between Adelaide and most of the way to Perth is fucking infertile desert. Stop digging.
Um. Ever hear of the "Year of the Green Center?" I can't remember when it was, but one year it rained buckets in the Red Center of Australia and the desert almost instantly bloomed with an amazing array of flowers and vegetation. There was a picture book printed about it.

The same thing happened to Death Valley in the US some years ago. Torrential rains caused the most extraordinary display of flowers and vegetation seen in Death Valley in recorded history.

So you're wrong when you say it's "infertile desert." It's incredibly fertile, it just lacks water. Big difference.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:24 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:It's a shame you aren't willing to actually learn anything. As has been made abundantly clear to you in this thread and others before it, Australia has a thin band of fertility alone the east, south east, and south west coast. That's where everyone lives and the vast majority of our food is produced. The rest, like the area between Adelaide and most of the way to Perth is fucking infertile desert. Stop digging.
Um. Ever hear of the "Year of the Green Center?" I can't remember when it was, but one year it rained buckets in the Red Center of Australia and the desert almost instantly bloomed with an amazing array of flowers and vegetation. There was a picture book printed about it.

The same thing happened to Death Valley in the US some years ago. Torrential rains caused the most extraordinary display of flowers and vegetation seen in Death Valley in recorded history.

So you're wrong when you say it's "infertile desert." It's incredibly fertile, it just lacks water. Big difference.
The blooming plants were desert natives, adapted both to the very low nutrient levels, and the "boom and bust" ecology that comes with highly irregular rainfall. If you try to grow Australian natives in the soil you would use to grow veggies, they curl up their toes and die, poisoned by nitrate and phosphate levels way higher than their roots are adapted too.

You can grow good vegetable crops in inland Oz, given a good water supply, but you have to add a lot of fertiliser per square metre.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:05 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:It's a shame you aren't willing to actually learn anything. As has been made abundantly clear to you in this thread and others before it, Australia has a thin band of fertility alone the east, south east, and south west coast. That's where everyone lives and the vast majority of our food is produced. The rest, like the area between Adelaide and most of the way to Perth is fucking infertile desert. Stop digging.
Um. Ever hear of the "Year of the Green Center?" I can't remember when it was, but one year it rained buckets in the Red Center of Australia and the desert almost instantly bloomed with an amazing array of flowers and vegetation. There was a picture book printed about it.

The same thing happened to Death Valley in the US some years ago. Torrential rains caused the most extraordinary display of flowers and vegetation seen in Death Valley in recorded history.

So you're wrong when you say it's "infertile desert." It's incredibly fertile, it just lacks water. Big difference.
I mean it is infertile for the purposes of growing food or trees for shade and gardens etc. That is, the stuff required by most people to live somewhere. Of course our deserts aren't literally like the Sahara. Australia has an incredible diversity of extremely hardy plants that can survive in conditions that stuff in the rest of the world can't. But they generally aren't trees, more shrubs and herbs. There are some trees that can do ok in the marginal desert environments, Brigalow which is an acacia, and mallee gums. Brigalow usually grows on land that an sustain a pasture of some sorts for cows and sheep. Mallee gums do tend to grow in very harsh environments, but they don't really grow very tall. Thinking of one hot and dry place where they are common is the Mallee of Victoria around Mildura. But the Murray River (the largest river in Australia) flows right through Mildura. So there is some soil in the flood plains upon which oranges and grapes can grow. That's not a common scenario around Australia's dryer regions.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:58 am

Seth wrote:Um. Ever hear of the "Year of the Green Center?"
Um, yes. We live here. The flooding and blooming makes headlines every seven years or so. As JimC and rEvolutionist have already pointed out, the flora is well adapted to flourishing in dirt devoid of nutrition. Wheat, cabbages and whatnot will not.

You and Mistermack make a fine duo, shooting your mouths off in the absence of any knowledge whatsoever about actual facts concerning Australia, and both of you are supremely adept at blithely ignoring them when we try to bring them to your attention. Even if water could be provided to the outback consistently, economically and in huge quantities, it does not suffice to grow things fit for human consumption. For that to happen a massive amount at currently massive cost of fertilisers. All your pipedreams remain just that until food production in the rest of this globe falls over in a screaming heap, and that is unlikely to happen, is it? Lolbertardianism and the absence of global warming will ensure that it won't, right?
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by rainbow » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:23 am

Seth wrote:
rainbow wrote:
Seth wrote:
The market should decide and Big Government should butt out. Don'cha think?
Yes, it should. The market, not the illegal immigrant. The problem is that illegal immigrants defraud the public by making their own decision to cross the border and leech on society in hopes of getting a job and becoming financially solvent and productive. Sadly, many of them never achieve that and they, or their dependents, become drains on the public purse for things like education and health care because their skill sets are inadequate to the market. And they perpetrate the fraud from the moment they step across the border, which is impermissible.
Rubbish. The setting up of borders in the first place was an act of force or fraud by Big Government.

A good Libertarian should demand that all border fences be torn down. :smug:
You still misunderstand Libertarianism. It's not a free-for-all by any stretch of the imagination.

"Big Government" is not a living organism, it's an organizational structure created by the inhabitants of the area, who are perfectly entitled to define the boundaries of their sphere of labor and investment.
...so if the inhabitants choose to divide property equally between them, you'd be happy?
Gosh I never realised that Socialism was compatible with Libertarianism.

Shudder.
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Under your interpretation, any illegal immigrant is entitled to move into your house merely because he has the ability to cross the border and claim your share of the costs improving society.

Are you willing to live your principles to that extent?
I'm not actually a Libertarian, if the truth be told.

I'm just trying to show you how illogical it is in Principle.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by rainbow » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:27 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote: Yes. But let me forestall your obvious rejoinder. Libertarianism doesn't buy into the notion that the sins of the father can be visited on the son. In other words, just because someone in the past initiated force or fraud that resulted in a benefit to someone today does not mean that a person today, who has not initiated force or fraud, is responsible for righting that wrong or compensating the descendants of the wronged person.
Why shouldn't they? They benefit from the past force/fraud of their antecendants.
Can you read? Fuck off.
Now, now. It was a valid question.

If you believe that you have the right to leave that property to future generations by inheritance, then the same should apply retrospectively to property illegally gained.

Don't Libertarians believe in fairness?
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by Hermit » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:20 am

Seth wrote:If I encroach on your property line in building my house and you don't object and take action to recover that property then you lose title to the property by "sitting on your rights."
So much for the inviolability and sanctity of private property in your concept of lolbertardianism. Looks like it lends itself to permanent warfare rather than freedom of the individual.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by mistermack » Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:53 am

JimC wrote: You can grow good vegetable crops in inland Oz, given a good water supply, but you have to add a lot of fertiliser per square metre.
Only for the first year. Once that's done, it just needs a tiny top-up every year, if that.
In any case, I posted about market gardening fruit and veg to supply a new city, using desalinated water. Enough to supply fresh fruit and veg for a city of couple of hundred thousand people. Not mile upon mile of crops for export.

In fact though, Australia has extensive ground water reserves, not just in the Artesian Basin, but over very large areas. So not all of the water supply would need to be desalinated sea water.
Some of it is slightly saline, but if so, it's still far cheaper to desalinate than sea water.

Market gardening creates it's own compost in very quick time, taking CO2 from the air and building organic matter. You only need trace fertiliser to replace what's extracted. And all agriculture needs some of that. Deserts can be made very productive in very quick time. That's been proved over and over again, like in California, and Israel etc. This stuff about poor soils is bollocks. It's not a problem. It might be for subsistence peasants, but not for modern agriculture, which can afford a bit of fertiliser.
In some ways, deserts are better. You don't get the same diseases as the fertile areas.
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Re: Immigrants make you richer.

Post by pErvinalia » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:06 pm

MM you know absolutely nothing about soil science (no surprises there). It's not a case of simply adding fertilizer and water and then it's all systems go. You need organic matter, soil structure, and microbial biota. All of this would require great expense to overcome. With very little benefit. Unless we turned all these arid areas into service cities like London, or better yet turned them into centres for renewable energy technologies. But of course, thanks to conspiracy theorists like you, and politicians in the pocket of big coal, we can't actually move ahead with transitioning to a green economy.
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