Another shot at the case against gnus

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Seth
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Seth » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:20 am

Tero wrote:So we need to teach 8 year olds to "stand your ground" instead of teaching them to lock the gun away.

8-year olds typically are thinking of their constitutional rights all day.
Strawman.

I said nothing whatever about "stand your ground" for eight year-olds. I specifically said that firearms training should be started in first grade and should continue through high school graduation with age-appropriate instruction at each level. The goal is to teach children the truth about firearms (that they don't do anything at all unless operated by a human being) and how to interact safely with firearms, whether they come into contact with them accidentally (as many do) or they are using them for an authorize designated purpose such as hunting or target shooting...or personal defense.

I pointed out that I, along with most of the kids in my generation who lived in rural areas, learned how to properly and safely handle and use firearms as early as age eight, to the extent that we could be trusted to bring our rifles to school on the bus for scheduled marksmanship training. This sort of thing has been the case for centuries. You choose to infantilize all children by making the specious assumption that all eight year olds are incapable of safely operating a firearm and I choose to point out that you are quite simply wrong. Your attitude is almost certainly an artifact of your liberal/progressive/Marxist upbringing and your own infantilization by your schools and government, who are programmed most carefully to indoctrinate you AGAINST firearms because an armed citizenry is anathema to the very concept of liberal/progressive/Marxist political ideology, and therefore the leftist educational systems have undertaken a careful and thorough demonization of firearms in general, an armed citizenry, and specifically the idea that young people are, or may be fully competent to possess and operate firearms, a notion thoroughly disproved by hundreds of years of young people owning and using firearms safely and competently.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Tero » Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:00 am

Gun safety bla bla bla. Just another way to brainwash kids into the "guns are good" camp.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Seth » Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:12 am

Tero wrote:Gun safety bla bla bla. Just another way to brainwash kids into the "guns are good" camp.
Guns are neither good nor bad. They inanimate objects with no moral agenda are very useful tools for a variety of different situations but they have risks associated with them, just like swimming pools, five-gallon buckets, staircases and automobiles.

More importantly they exist, and children are likely to encounter them at some time in their lives, which militates for careful and comprehensive training so that when they do, they will know what to do to deal with the situation properly and safety.

You're arguing that ignorance is bliss, which is EXACTLY the mind-set that gets children killed by guns. It's exactly like refusing to teach kids about motor vehicles and their effect on the human body when the body is struck by a moving vehicle because (the idiotic thinking goes) if kids don't know about how dangerous cars are, they will never be hit by one.

Stupidity. Complete stupidity.

We teach children to use matches correctly and to stop and look both ways before they cross the street and to wear a helmet and a zillion other safety-related things because we know that they may be exposed to such perils in daily life and they need to know how to react and respond and how to make good judgments. Why you would even think to poo-pooh educating children about gun safety is beyond comprehension.

It can only be explained by an utterly irrational and completely paranoid fear of inanimate objects known as "guns."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Tero » Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:17 pm

Guns are an individual thing, like a penis. It is of some benefit to the owner.

Your whole thing of a community of law abiding citizens working together to defend a community is a myth. The myth you are brainwashing the kiddies with in the framework of gun safety. Sure, teach them about the guns and the way they work. That way they can kill evil daddy when his genes go wrong and he decides to kill all.
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Seth » Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:49 am

Tero wrote:Guns are an individual thing, like a penis. It is of some benefit to the owner.
Indeed. Sometimes it's of invaluable benefit to the owner. Guns are also often an invaluable benefit to society as a whole.
Your whole thing of a community of law abiding citizens working together to defend a community is a myth.
No, it's history. Can you say "Lexington and Concord?"

The myth you are brainwashing the kiddies with in the framework of gun safety. Sure, teach them about the guns and the way they work. That way they can kill evil daddy when his genes go wrong and he decides to kill all.
Well, better they kill him than he kill them because they are ignorant and unable to protect themselves.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by laklak » Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:02 pm

Ordered this off Impact Guns, should arrive next week. After paying for the background check and FFL delivery I'm in at $440. 9mm, 17 round double stack mag. Bersa is getting really good reviews from both pros and customers. Bit large for concealed carry so it's the bedroom gun, wanted something a bit more modern than my old P38. Been thinking about their concealed carry .380 for Xmas presents for the girls.

Image
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Seth » Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:09 pm

laklak wrote:Ordered this off Impact Guns, should arrive next week. After paying for the background check and FFL delivery I'm in at $440. 9mm, 17 round double stack mag. Bersa is getting really good reviews from both pros and customers. Bit large for concealed carry so it's the bedroom gun, wanted something a bit more modern than my old P38. Been thinking about their concealed carry .380 for Xmas presents for the girls.
Dude, get them real guns, please. Something with some stopping power.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by laklak » Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:24 pm

Yeah I thought about it, but they're both quite tiny. Some of the newer .380 ACP loads are pretty good. Bersa does make their concealed carry in 9mm Luger, 40 SW and .45 ACP though. Another option was Kel Tec's .22 Magnum PMR, it's got a 30 round mag. I just don't trust rimfire semiautos like I do center fires. It's one thing to clear a bad round when you're out plinking, another thing entirely in a SD situation. 'Course good ammo makes all the difference.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Seth » Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:01 pm

laklak wrote:Yeah I thought about it, but they're both quite tiny. Some of the newer .380 ACP loads are pretty good. Bersa does make their concealed carry in 9mm Luger, 40 SW and .45 ACP though. Another option was Kel Tec's .22 Magnum PMR, it's got a 30 round mag. I just don't trust rimfire semiautos like I do center fires. It's one thing to clear a bad round when you're out plinking, another thing entirely in a SD situation. 'Course good ammo makes all the difference.
While you can get a .45 in a form factor just as small as a .380 (or pretty close) there is, I admit, the issue of recoil and controllability that should indeed be factored in to the selection of a handgun for a smaller persons.

A bigger bullet that doesn't hit the target because of recoil aversion is far less useful than a bunch of smaller caliber bullets that do.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by laklak » Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:01 pm

I think I'll take them both to the range and let them try a couple of rentals in different calibers. I know the older (and slightly larger) one can control a 9mm, she was in the Marines just out of high school and loved the M9. My youngest has shot a lot of .380, her ex-boyfriend was a shooter. I was thinking of paying for their concealed carry course and license also. No point in knowing how to shoot and not being able to carry.
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Tero » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:20 am

showing him the gun
LOL
MILWAUKEE, WI, 10/01/14: A 32-year-old Milwaukee man was shot Wednesday night, allegedly while his friend was showing him a gun—and while both men were drunk. Milwaukee police said the shooting happened at 9:20 PM in the 1500 block of S. 7th St. The victim told police that his friend was showing him the gun when it discharged. The friend corroborated that story but is in custody while the Milwaukee County District Attorney's Office reviews the case. The victim was transported to the hospital and treated for a non-life-threatening injury.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/11/2 ... FAIL-LXXXI#
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International disaster, send for the master
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International disaster, international disaster
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Hermit » Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:27 am

^^^ Cue the usual "that's not what typically happens" response.

I like this take on the lack of gun control in the US:



and this trio of reports
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Tero » Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:25 pm


Seth
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Seth » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:53 pm

Compositional fallacy again. There's 298 million other people who didn't do something stupid with a gun, so I don't see this as a problem that requires all the hysterical response from hoplophobes.

Individuals do stupid stuff that gets them killed or hurt all the time with every object imaginable and yet we do not hear you protesting for the banning of ladders, five gallon buckets, swimming pools or automobiles do we?

Nope. Spotlight fallacy there Bud.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Tero » Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:45 am

But you need a car to get to work. So I need to tolerate idiot drivers. Unless you want socialism with buses and subways. You don't need your gun to get to work.
International disaster, gonna be a blaster
Gonna rearrange our lives
International disaster, send for the master
Don't wait to see the white of his eyes
International disaster, international disaster
Price of silver droppin' so do yer Christmas shopping
Before you lose the chance to score (Pembroke)

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