Religiosity and impoverishment
- Blind groper
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:10 am
- About me: From New Zealand
- Contact:
Religiosity and impoverishment
http://www.alternet.org/story/144174/is ... ng_america
Researcher, Gregory Paul, has found a strong correlation between religiosity and social impoverishment across 17 western nations. In this, the USA stands out as being a nation that is too religious, and has suffered serious social consequences as a result.
Researcher, Gregory Paul, has found a strong correlation between religiosity and social impoverishment across 17 western nations. In this, the USA stands out as being a nation that is too religious, and has suffered serious social consequences as a result.
- cronus
- Black Market Analyst
- Posts: 18122
- Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm
- About me: Illis quos amo deserviam
- Location: United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
When people are poor they wont readily feed the 1% given a rational explanation of their circumstance, a little fairytale and the promise of a good afterlife and they do. No mystery. 

What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?
- Blind groper
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:10 am
- About me: From New Zealand
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
Gregory Paul also has an article in the latest Skeptic mag. In this, he analyses 17 western nations according to a number of variables, such as health care, life span, rate of teenage pregnancy, incidence of STD's, divorce rate, murder rate, and so on. From 24 variables, a measure is calculated known as the Successful Societies Scale. The USA is bottom out of the 17 nations, with a score of just under 3 (out of a maximum possible of 9). Top is Norway with a score just under 8. Second worst is Australia with a score of just under 5. Paul ascribes the abyssmal performance of the USA to a mixture of religion and libertarianism.
It is interesting to note that, inside the USA, their score drops to its lowest point in the Bible Belt (which has a lot more divorce, STP's, and teenage pregnancy, not to mention murders. Religion certainly is a great thing!).
The most progressive countries are those with lowest religiosity and libertarianism, and consist of Sweden, Japan, England, Norway, Denmark, France and Germany.
It is interesting to note that, inside the USA, their score drops to its lowest point in the Bible Belt (which has a lot more divorce, STP's, and teenage pregnancy, not to mention murders. Religion certainly is a great thing!).
The most progressive countries are those with lowest religiosity and libertarianism, and consist of Sweden, Japan, England, Norway, Denmark, France and Germany.
- Seabass
- Posts: 7339
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:32 pm
- About me: Pluviophile
- Location: Covidiocracy
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Even the author acknowledges that the study reveals correlation, not causation.Blind groper wrote: and has suffered serious social consequences as a result.
The Union army burned the south to the ground in the 1860s, leaving it defeated, demoralized, and economically devastated. Not surprisingly, southerners found solace in religion, as people often do in difficult times. Moreover, I suspect that turning to religion may have also served as a way for southerners to reaffirm their own moral righteousness after having been the side that fought for slavery.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
Seabass wrote:I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Even the author acknowledges that the study reveals correlation, not causation.Blind groper wrote: and has suffered serious social consequences as a result.
The Union army burned the south to the ground in the 1860s, leaving it defeated, demoralized, and economically devastated. Not surprisingly, southerners found solace in religion, as people often do in difficult times. Moreover, I suspect that turning to religion may have also served as a way for southerners to reaffirm their own moral righteousness after having been the side that fought for slavery.
Indeed it is. And what, exactly, is wrong with that?"Popular religion," Paul proposes, "is a coping mechanism for the anxieties of a dysfunctional social and economic environment."
Moreover, his focus on "prosperity" impeaches his conclusions regarding the genesis and value of religion because, as many religions teach, prosperity for prosperity's sake is more often the road to ruin than an indicator of a happy life. His failure to determine whether or not "prosperity" is a good thing or a bad thing makes his research stink of observer bias, which appears to be an ongoing problem with him according to the article.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
- Calilasseia
- Butterfly
- Posts: 5272
- Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:31 pm
- About me: Destroyer of canards, and merciless shredder of bad ideas. :twisted:
- Location: 40,000 feet above you, dropping JDAMs
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
It's also an "ongoing problem" for all those televangelists hoarding mansions, limousines and private jets ...
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
It may indeed be exactly that, but the failure of one or more persons to adhere to the tenets of a religion does not impeach the value of the religion, it merely means that some people are imperfectly practicing their professed faith. The ultimate decision will, of course, be up to God to sort out...if God exists.Calilasseia wrote:It's also an "ongoing problem" for all those televangelists hoarding mansions, limousines and private jets ...
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
- cronus
- Black Market Analyst
- Posts: 18122
- Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm
- About me: Illis quos amo deserviam
- Location: United Kingdom
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
I think America is making the right decision going for poverty. It is greatly in Gods favour now. I'd like to help - if it could be arranged, a hopeless sinner in a hopeless foreign land like me, will take two gold bars, maybe any number later.Seth wrote:It may indeed be exactly that, but the failure of one or more persons to adhere to the tenets of a religion does not impeach the value of the religion, it merely means that some people are imperfectly practicing their professed faith. The ultimate decision will, of course, be up to God to sort out...if God exists.Calilasseia wrote:It's also an "ongoing problem" for all those televangelists hoarding mansions, limousines and private jets ...
What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?
- JimC
- The sentimental bloke
- Posts: 74149
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
- About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
I will gladly pay you later for a hamburger today...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!
And my gin!
- Blind groper
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:10 am
- About me: From New Zealand
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
In Paul's 'Skeptic' article, he states that libertarianism leads to weak government, and weak government means those outside government with power (like corporate leaders) will exploit and harm those who are weaker. Strong government leads to lower crime rates due to better policing as well. The USA has the largest level of inequality between upper and lower socio-economic levels in society. This can be ascribed to due to the suppressing effect of wealthy people, unrestrained by strong government.
If you look at the top nations in the survey, like Sweden, England, and Norway, you see strong governments able to control those who would otherwise exploit and suppress the less fortunate people.
Libertarian USA has the widest range of wealth in its population, from ultra rich to ultra poor. The perception of being very poor when living in a wealthy nation is very harmful psychologically. It has even been found to cause epigenetic changes which are known to cause a reduction in intelligence. Not only are you more likely to be poor if you are stupid, but being poor makes you more stupid.
In these ways, a less libertarian system, which includes some socialist programs to assist the poor, will make for a fairer society, and one that is healthier, and creates broader welfare for a wider sector of society..
If you look at the top nations in the survey, like Sweden, England, and Norway, you see strong governments able to control those who would otherwise exploit and suppress the less fortunate people.
Libertarian USA has the widest range of wealth in its population, from ultra rich to ultra poor. The perception of being very poor when living in a wealthy nation is very harmful psychologically. It has even been found to cause epigenetic changes which are known to cause a reduction in intelligence. Not only are you more likely to be poor if you are stupid, but being poor makes you more stupid.
In these ways, a less libertarian system, which includes some socialist programs to assist the poor, will make for a fairer society, and one that is healthier, and creates broader welfare for a wider sector of society..
- Seabass
- Posts: 7339
- Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:32 pm
- About me: Pluviophile
- Location: Covidiocracy
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment

Ha! Well, I must admit, Gropes, you actually had me fooled there for a minute. I mean, for a moment I actually believed that your intention was to have an earnest discussion about the relationship between religiosity and impoverishment. But now you're blathering something about libertarianism. True to form, your thread turned out to be another case of you taking every opportunity to tell us Merkins how awful and stupid we are.
Well, I'm just embarrassed that I actually took the time to give your OP a serious response. I won't make that mistake again.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
"They want to take away your hamburgers. This is what Stalin dreamt about but never achieved." —Sebastian Gorka
- Hermit
- Posts: 25806
- Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:44 am
- About me: Cantankerous grump
- Location: Ignore lithpt
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
You beauty. Seabass versus groper. I hope the commotion in the ocean will be even better than the rumble in the jungle.
Speaking for myself, I regard the following remarks as fair comment:
Speaking for myself, I regard the following remarks as fair comment:
One would have to be pretty fucking stupid to disagree. Also, repeatedly voting for the likes of Bush(s), Reagan et al, and never learning from those mistakes is a sure sign that the majority of US citizens is an incorrigibly gullible lot of utter cretins.libertarianism leads to weak government, and weak government means those outside government with power (like corporate leaders) will exploit and harm those who are weaker. Strong government leads to lower crime rates due to better policing as well. The USA has the largest level of inequality between upper and lower socio-economic levels in society. This can be ascribed to due to the suppressing effect of wealthy people, unrestrained by strong government.
If you look at the top nations in the survey, like Sweden, England, and Norway, you see strong governments able to control those who would otherwise exploit and suppress the less fortunate people.
Libertarian USA has the widest range of wealth in its population, from ultra rich to ultra poor. The perception of being very poor when living in a wealthy nation is very harmful psychologically. It has even been found to cause epigenetic changes which are known to cause a reduction in intelligence. Not only are you more likely to be poor if you are stupid, but being poor makes you more stupid.
In these ways, a less libertarian system, which includes some socialist programs to assist the poor, will make for a fairer society, and one that is healthier, and creates broader welfare for a wider sector of society.

I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
It's "I will gladly pay you Wednesday for a hamburger today." Wimpy.JimC wrote:I will gladly pay you later for a hamburger today...
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
The point of Libertarianism is that government is supposed to be weak, to keep it from becoming despotic and tyrannical, and that individuals are responsible for enforcing acceptable social behavior themselves, or in cooperation with others.Blind groper wrote:In Paul's 'Skeptic' article, he states that libertarianism leads to weak government, and weak government means those outside government with power (like corporate leaders) will exploit and harm those who are weaker.
Really? So why is the crime rate in Russia astronomical despite decades of rigid and ubiquitous law enforcement? Why is the crime rate in the UK higher than it is in the US despite the supposedly "better" law enforcement?Strong government leads to lower crime rates due to better policing as well.
I'll take weak government and the right to enforce the law myself over a despotic and tyrannical government (which is what ours is becoming) with a militarized police force (which ours is well on the way to) that can terrorize and abuse the public with utter impunity like, oh, let's say the Waffen SS or Pinochet's goons.
Which means that hard work and innovation are rewarded while sloth, idleness and ignorance are not. The solution is for people to work hard and educate themselves so as to raise their socioeconomic status. Of course there is little motivation to do so in a welfare state where it is more profitable and more comfortable to live on the government dole than it is to take risks and work hard at education and work to succeed.The USA has the largest level of inequality between upper and lower socio-economic levels in society.
Complete bullshit.This can be ascribed to due to the suppressing effect of wealthy people, unrestrained by strong government.
No, what you see are a panoply of welfare states that will inevitably crumble to chaos and anarchy as soon as the OPM runs out.If you look at the top nations in the survey, like Sweden, England, and Norway, you see strong governments able to control those who would otherwise exploit and suppress the less fortunate people.
Libertarian USA has the widest range of wealth in its population, from ultra rich to ultra poor. The perception of being very poor when living in a wealthy nation is very harmful psychologically.
Actually it's a great stimulator of industry and hard work, because the examples of great economic success that surround the poor demonstrate that anyone who had the talent, education and drive to succeed economically has the opportunity to do so. There are no legal constraints that prevent even the penniless from becoming a success. The most corrosive and corrupting factor that keeps poor people poor is the welfare system that deliberately and with malicious intent keeps them dependent on government for their very survival. This is an entirely cynical and pre-planned agenda of Democrats and other liberals who wish to enslave the poor to the will of government in order to secure the votes of the poor for extending the practice of government support, which creates a vicious cycle that produced nothing but generational poverty and dependency.
You need to learn the difference between stupidity and ignorance.It has even been found to cause epigenetic changes which are known to cause a reduction in intelligence. Not only are you more likely to be poor if you are stupid, but being poor makes you more stupid.
...and chains more and more people to generational poverty and servitude to the elite political class.In these ways, a less libertarian system, which includes some socialist programs to assist the poor, will make for a fairer society, and one that is healthier, and creates broader welfare for a wider sector of society..
Fuck that.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke
"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth
© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.
- Blind groper
- Posts: 3997
- Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:10 am
- About me: From New Zealand
- Contact:
Re: Religiosity and impoverishment
Let me make a point for Seabass and Seth. My comments here about religiosity and libertarianism are the result of reading the article in Skeptic magazine, in which the author ascribes the very poor rating of the USA to the strength of those two influences. I tend to agree with the author, but he is the one who carried out the detailed study, not me.
The reality is that Gregory Paul, the researcher, is himself American, and he is America's worst critic. Paul labels the USA as the most dysfunctional of the 17 western nations in his study. The factors involved include murder rates, teenage pregnancy rates, divorce rates, the rate of gonorrhea and syphilis, health care, longevity, the gap between rich and poor, and a number of other factors to the total of 24. The final score was as close to objective as the author could make it, using standard methods.
The author blames high levels of religiosity and libertarianism for the fact that the USA scores as highly dysfunctional.
If you disagree, perhaps you could suggest other causes.
The reality is that Gregory Paul, the researcher, is himself American, and he is America's worst critic. Paul labels the USA as the most dysfunctional of the 17 western nations in his study. The factors involved include murder rates, teenage pregnancy rates, divorce rates, the rate of gonorrhea and syphilis, health care, longevity, the gap between rich and poor, and a number of other factors to the total of 24. The final score was as close to objective as the author could make it, using standard methods.
The author blames high levels of religiosity and libertarianism for the fact that the USA scores as highly dysfunctional.
If you disagree, perhaps you could suggest other causes.
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests