Toldjaso!

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by Seth » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:19 pm

JimC wrote:
piscator wrote:
JimC wrote:If McNamara is to be condemned, given that he at least eventually saw and admitted the failings of his policies, then how much more condemnation is required of those right wing lunatics of his generation who still cling to their absurd beliefs that their war was justified?
We won the long war against authoritarian Communism. The lives of billions have been permanently improved in the process. The shirt I'm wearing was made in Vietnam. :coffee:
I don't disagree that the disappearance of authoritarian communism was a good thing for the human race.

However, its demise was more the result of its own inefficiencies and internal contradictions than a heroic effort by the US for truth, justice, and they American way of life, although the inherent arrogance of American exceptionalism demands the romantic delusion of heroism...
We won a major battle in the war against Communism, which is by its very nature and actual function, authoritarian (in spite of all the silly rhetoric focused on utopian and unattainable notions of perfected Communism), and the lives of billions were improved by this effort, but that improvement is anything but permanent, it's in grave danger still and always will be because there will always exist people who crave totalitarian power who will seek to use the dialectic of Marxism as a means of aggregating power and control by deluding the proletarian masses into believing the fundamental lies of Marxism.

And yes, its demise was both predictable and predicted and a result of the fundamental flaws in the ideology, which is why it puzzles me when people keep insanely insisting that Communism can work, despite a hundred years of 100 percent abject failure.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by rainbow » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:42 pm

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
piscator wrote:
JimC wrote:If McNamara is to be condemned, given that he at least eventually saw and admitted the failings of his policies, then how much more condemnation is required of those right wing lunatics of his generation who still cling to their absurd beliefs that their war was justified?
We won the long war against authoritarian Communism. The lives of billions have been permanently improved in the process. The shirt I'm wearing was made in Vietnam. :coffee:
I don't disagree that the disappearance of authoritarian communism was a good thing for the human race.

However, its demise was more the result of its own inefficiencies and internal contradictions than a heroic effort by the US for truth, justice, and they American way of life, although the inherent arrogance of American exceptionalism demands the romantic delusion of heroism...
We won a major battle in the war against Communism, which is by its very nature and actual function, authoritarian (in spite of all the silly rhetoric focused on utopian and unattainable notions of perfected Communism), and the lives of billions were improved by this effort, but that improvement is anything but permanent, it's in grave danger still and always will be because there will always exist people who crave totalitarian power who will seek to use the dialectic of Marxism as a means of aggregating power and control by deluding the proletarian masses into believing the fundamental lies of Marxism.

And yes, its demise was both predictable and predicted and a result of the fundamental flaws in the ideology, which is why it puzzles me when people keep insanely insisting that Communism can work, despite a hundred years of 100 percent abject failure.
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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by Hermit » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:02 pm

Thanks for yet another one of your tedious and predictable rants, Seth. I suppose it won't do me any good if I asked you to put another record on. This one has its grooves worn through to the other side.

Jim, calling Americans arrogant is a bit harsh. Many of them are ignorant and insular, which sort of resembles arrogance, but in that they don't differ much at all from the populations of many other countries. If you get your information from the media you can't help but conclude that the Soviet Union was brought down by the intrepid Charlie Wilson, that Hitler would have won if it was not for the heroic intervention of John Wayne, Robert Mitchum and Red Buttons and that without the US's economic and material aid to Stalin the German panzers would have rolled into Cape Dezhnyov before October 1941.
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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by Svartalf » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:08 pm

The US sent help to Stalin before their troops met up with the Soviets in '45?
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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by Hermit » Wed Aug 06, 2014 2:27 pm

Svartalf wrote:The US sent help to Stalin before their troops met up with the Soviets in '45?
It certainly did. Between March 1941 and its official entry in the war the US spent 50.1 billion dollars, about 656 billion in today's terms, in weapons, other materials and finance on the allied nations. 31.4 of that went to the UK, 11.3 to the Soviet Union and the rest to other countries. It was popularly known as the Lend-Lease program and was enacted specifically to circumvent the isolationist policy until it was dropped when Pearl Harbor was attacked. The official legislation enabling this was named An Act to Further Promote the Defense of the United States.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by laklak » Wed Aug 06, 2014 3:57 pm

7 billion of that was in Hershey bars and nylon stockings.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by piscator » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:47 pm

Hermit wrote:Thanks for yet another one of your tedious and predictable rants, Seth. I suppose it won't do me any good if I asked you to put another record on. This one has its grooves worn through to the other side.

Jim, calling Americans arrogant is a bit harsh. Many of them are ignorant and insular, which sort of resembles arrogance, but in that they don't differ much at all from the populations of many other countries. If you get your information from the media you can't help but conclude that the Soviet Union was brought down by the intrepid Charlie Wilson, that Hitler would have won if it was not for the heroic intervention of John Wayne, Robert Mitchum and Red Buttons and that without the US's economic and material aid to Stalin the German panzers would have rolled into Cape Dezhnyov before October 1941.




The Longest Day, huh?

That long pullback shot of the French Commandos assaulting Ouistreham is still one of the most amazing shots in moviedom.







МАРШАЛ ЖУКОВ: “...Американцы нам гнали столько материалов, без которых мы бы не могли формировать свои резервы и не могли бы продолжать войну... Получили 350 тысяч автомашин, да каких машин!.. У нас не было взрывчатки, пороха. Не было чем снаряжать патроны. Американцы по-настоящему выручили нас с порохом и взрывчаткой. А сколько они нам гнали листовой стали. Разве мы могли бы быстро наладить производство танков, если бы не американская помощь сталью. А сейчас представляют дело так, будто у нас все это было свое в изобилии”.
Всего, как считается, доля поставок по ленд-лизу в общем объеме поставок для Красной Армии и советских гражданских нужд составляла 16% по бронетанковой технике; 15,3% по самолетам; 32,4% по боевым кораблям; 18,4% по зенитной артиллерии; св.80% по радиолокационной аппаратуре; 20,6% по тракторам; 23,1% по металлорежущим станкам; 42,1% по паровозам; 66,1% по грузовым и легковым автомобилям; 80% медикаментов и медицинского оборудования; св.50% горюче-смазочных материалов и т.д.


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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by JimC » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:20 pm

Hermit wrote: Jim, calling Americans arrogant is a bit harsh. Many of them are ignorant and insular, which sort of resembles arrogance, but in that they don't differ much at all from the populations of many other countries. If you get your information from the media you can't help but conclude that the Soviet Union was brought down by the intrepid Charlie Wilson, that Hitler would have won if it was not for the heroic intervention of John Wayne, Robert Mitchum and Red Buttons and that without the US's economic and material aid to Stalin the German panzers would have rolled into Cape Dezhnyov before October 1941.
It's not something I'd apply wholesale to individual Americans, but when they indulge in a collective view of America, an arrogant fantasy often emerges; think "manifest destiny", and all the crap of leading the rest of the poor deluded world towards a glorious future of democracy and untamed free-enterprise...
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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by Seth » Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:07 pm

Hermit wrote:Thanks for yet another one of your tedious and predictable rants, Seth. I suppose it won't do me any good if I asked you to put another record on. This one has its grooves worn through to the other side.
Thanks for yet another of your tedious and predictable mindless displays of ignorance and intolerance. No, it will do you no good at all because I will continue to reveal the truth about Communism and Marxism for so long as Communism and Marxism exist, even in the thoughts of people, or until I'm dead...providing there's no afterlife or reincarnation, in which case I intend to continue to advocate for liberty and personal freedom and private property, which are the roots of the success of the best nation ever to exist on this planet: The United States of America.

Evil is evil and I will never dispense with identifying evil when I see it because "all that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

And those who advocate doing nothing in the face of evil are themselves the minions of evil and therefore must be called out.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by MrJonno » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:19 pm

Only the Seth deal in absolutes
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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by tattuchu » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:24 pm

Hermit wrote: Jim, calling Americans arrogant is a bit harsh. Many of them are ignorant and insular...
Hey! That's not true! :sulk:


Wait, what does insular mean :ask:
Hermit wrote: If you get your information from the media you can't help but conclude that... without the US's economic and material aid to Stalin, the German panzers would have rolled into Cape Dezhnyov before October 1941.
What the hell are you talking about? We won the war single-handedly. Everybody knows that :lay:
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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by jaydot » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:24 pm

communism has only been practised by small groups of people such as those at findhorn and Machynlleth, insofar as they share toils and eat communally. there is no preclusion in communism to personal possessions, including housing.

what was practised in russia and is current elsewhere is not communism; it is totalitarianism, a whole different ball of wax.

when considering communism, think linux. each of the people who submit code to the github do so for one of two reasons, or both - they wish to have a utility that is yet to exist; they wish to offer a useful utility to the communality. those who can't code, but wish to contribute, do so in a variety of ways, managing image downloads being one. linux is communism in its purest form - from each according to his means; to each according to his needs. each individual owns the copyright to the code he or she wrote, while giving it away freely under the creative commons licence.
open source the world.

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by piscator » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:08 am

jaydot wrote:communism has only been practised by small groups of people such as those at findhorn and Machynlleth, insofar as they share toils and eat communally. there is no preclusion in communism to personal possessions, including housing.

what was practised in russia and is current elsewhere is not communism; it is totalitarianism, a whole different ball of wax.

when considering communism, think linux. each of the people who submit code to the github do so for one of two reasons, or both - they wish to have a utility that is yet to exist; they wish to offer a useful utility to the communality. those who can't code, but wish to contribute, do so in a variety of ways, managing image downloads being one. linux is communism in its purest form - from each according to his means; to each according to his needs. each individual owns the copyright to the code he or she wrote, while giving it away freely under the creative commons licence.


Linux is GPL/GPLII, Praise be unto Stallman (PBUS).
And lots of people are paid to develop Linux. By the grace of Stallman, ZFS on Linux (ZoL) is the result of a 12-year effort by the Rand Corporation to reverse engineer a GPL-compatible ZFS file system around the CDDL, another Free and Open Source license. ZoL still runs pretty much like shit when pressed even slightly (PBUS).


If you want your code to be open and free, use the BSD license. :whisper:

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by Seth » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:34 am

MrJonno wrote:Only the Seth deal in absolutes
Not always, but in the case of Marxism, yes, absolutely. It's absolutely evil and it absolutely must be extirpated from the face of the earth.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Toldjaso!

Post by Seth » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:47 am

jaydot wrote:communism has only been practised by small groups of people such as those at findhorn and Machynlleth, insofar as they share toils and eat communally. there is no preclusion in communism to personal possessions, including housing.
Wrong. The entire basis of even utopian Communism is that the individual owns nothing, not even his body or his labor.
what was practised in russia and is current elsewhere is not communism; it is totalitarianism, a whole different ball of wax.
Why, yes, you're right. The only problem for you is that communism = totalitarianism one-hundred percent of the time in any community of more than a very few willing individuals. The instant someone objects to communal ownership of everything, including the means of production and every other thing, the "communist" society either becomes totalitarian to enforce the ideology or it removes the objector from the community. At Findhorn they just ask someone to leave. In every other communist society of any size, they usually just imprison and kill them for being "counterrevolutionaries."
when considering communism, think linux. each of the people who submit code to the github do so for one of two reasons, or both - they wish to have a utility that is yet to exist; they wish to offer a useful utility to the communality. those who can't code, but wish to contribute, do so in a variety of ways, managing image downloads being one. linux is communism in its purest form - from each according to his means; to each according to his needs. each individual owns the copyright to the code he or she wrote, while giving it away freely under the creative commons licence.
Which works just fine only so long as participation in the "communal work" is entirely voluntary and any person who wishes to write his own code, copyright it and sell it as the fruits of his individual labor is free to do so.

The problem with communism in fact is that operationally no large group of people can or will accept a member who refuses to "give according to his ability" in return for what the community offers by way of "according to his need."

If someone takes Linux, writes a module to enhance the system and then claims copyright (exclusive possession and use) of the resulting system because he has input his labor and does not wish to share the fruits of that labor with others, the Linux society will without any question whatsoever eject and exclude him from the "community" in the future, and will likely sue him (liquidate him in Stalinistic terms) to prevent him from using the "common" product they all "freely" contributed to because they don't get a piece of his pie.

Exactly the same thing happens in communist societies. When the free riders appear and start consuming resources "given according to the ability" of the rest of the members of the community without themselves giving anything those who labor rightfully object and the whole system falls apart, as it's doomed to do as a result of it's idiotic and fatally flawed philosophical and political underpinnings.

Communism does not and cannot ever work in the long term because it fundamentally ignores actual human behavior in favor of a utopian ideal of human interaction that has never and will never exist for any but the shortest time, usually failing spectacularly and fatally for those involved.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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