What is faith? Really?

[rainbow]

A religion of cheese can be the only true faith.

Cheeses love you!

[Brian Peacock]

Here's what I posted in 2011 to Pappa's "Faith: what's it like?" thread (edited).

Faith isn't something magical.
It isn't something wonderful.
It isn't something awesome or amazing.

Faith is not something one gives to one's children on the balance of fairness, for that implies that it would be unfair to withhold this apparent marvel of the imagination.

Faith is not something one can gift as an experience to one's children, like the taste of candy floss or a pony ride on the beach... instead it is something that one inculcates, instils, trains and/or brainwashes children into thinking that this apparent marvel of the imagination is a real something magical, wonderful, and awesome - as long as they don't look too deep and start asking what that 'something' might be of course.

We know what children are like. They are credulous. They believe what adults tell them is true because this is generally to their benefit. "Careful that's hot; put that down you don't know where it's been; be gentle with that kitten and it will love you forever." This tells children something about the world.

"Think this and don't do/say/be like that or else God will throw you into a burning pit of pain and misery and the Devil will torture you for ever and ever," does not tell them about the world but simply threatens them into obeisance. Getting children, and adults, to accept that this is somehow a reasonable, normal, natural and even good state of affairs is what Faith is all about.

We know what Faith really is - it's a mechanism for justifying the unjustifiable, for claiming knowledge of the unknowable, and, in the end, for believing the unbelievable. It's also a tool of authoritarian control, the acceptance of which is spun as special kind of personal virtue. Thus Faith is made special, both a 'thing' and a unique way of claiming knowledge of something which, once (magically) apprehended, may become a certainty as unshakable and real as any scientific fact.

But what does Faith actually require children to believe?
The faithful would claim it' is the magic, wonder, and awesomeness of God, who is a kind of powerful creature who loves and takes care of everybody. But that is just the chocolate sprinkles on the top of a tepid and insubstantial froth. What Faith really requires children, and adults, to believe is that the ancient superstitions, naive assumptions, and the primitive beliefs of long-dead nomadic goatherds are truths by which we must live our lives.

Telling children that these beliefs are certain and definite, that they are just as true and real and relevant as hydrogen, dinosaurs and jelly is to tell them that unjustified assumptions are just a valid as justified facts - that lies are equal to truths, and indeed that these particular lies supersede all other truths. Moreover, to teach children that the unquestioning acceptance of a religious authority is always, and can only ever be, a good thing, simply because the religious authority declares it so, can and does lead to several shades of real bad.

As a wise man once said; the good do good and bad do bad, but to get the good to do bad you need religion - and to accept religion as truth one needs Faith.

http://www.rationalia.com/forum/viewtop ... 15#p738152

[Hermit]

"The good do good and bad do bad, but to get the good to do bad you need religion - and to accept religion as truth one needs Faith."

I hate that platitude. Not that it is entirely incorrect. It's just egregiously inaccurate and misleading in so far as it implies that nobody who is good would do bad if there were no religion.

[Brian Peacock]

Well yeah, but it's about doing bad in the name of good.

[JimC]

Well yeah, but it's about doing bad in the name of good.

Many a non-religious ideologue has gone down that path as well...

[Brian Peacock]

Definitely. Faith is acceptance in a swanky hat. It is oxygen to ideologues of all persuasions.

[mistermack]

Yeh, the good/bad bit sounds good, but it's entirely untrue.

In any case, people aren't either good or bad. They are much more complicated than that.


What bugs me about faith is that, even if people haven't got it, they often still try to inflict it on their kids. Or stand by, while the religious twats try to do it for them.
I really respect parents who leave it to their kids. My sister is one of the few true believers I know, but I heard her laughing telling my other sister that her son doesn't believe in god, but does believe in Santa Clause.

[Seth]

Yeh, the good/bad bit sounds good, but it's entirely untrue.

In any case, people aren't either good or bad. They are much more complicated than that.


What bugs me about faith is that, even if people haven't got it, they often still try to inflict it on their kids. Or stand by, while the religious twats try to do it for them.
I really respect parents who leave it to their kids. My sister is one of the few true believers I know, but I heard her laughing telling my other sister that her son doesn't believe in god, but does believe in Santa Clause.

Perhaps they do it because they find great value in the memes of their faith that they wish to pass on to their children. Just because you don't like the memes doesn't mean they are inherently bad or evil, it usually means that you are ignorant about the faith and how it fits into people's lives. Nobody forces them to have faith here in the US. You either have it or you don't, and if you do then you must find some value in it. Who the fuck are you to tell someone else what the value of their faith is to them? Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

[Hermit]

Who the fuck are you to tell someone else what the value of their faith is to them? Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

[JimC]

Yeh, the good/bad bit sounds good, but it's entirely untrue.

In any case, people aren't either good or bad. They are much more complicated than that.


What bugs me about faith is that, even if people haven't got it, they often still try to inflict it on their kids. Or stand by, while the religious twats try to do it for them.
I really respect parents who leave it to their kids. My sister is one of the few true believers I know, but I heard her laughing telling my other sister that her son doesn't believe in god, but does believe in Santa Clause.

Perhaps they do it because they find great value in the memes of their faith that they wish to pass on to their children. Just because you don't like the memes doesn't mean they are inherently bad or evil, it usually means that you are ignorant about the faith and how it fits into people's lives. Nobody forces them to have faith here in the US. You either have it or you don't, and if you do then you must find some value in it. Who the fuck are you to tell someone else what the value of their faith is to them? Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

A faith freely chosen by someone who is an adult is one thing.

A faith imprinted by brainwashing on susceptible children is quite another...

[Brian Peacock]

Yeh, the good/bad bit sounds good, but it's entirely untrue.

In any case, people aren't either good or bad. They are much more complicated than that.


What bugs me about faith is that, even if people haven't got it, they often still try to inflict it on their kids. Or stand by, while the religious twats try to do it for them.
I really respect parents who leave it to their kids. My sister is one of the few true believers I know, but I heard her laughing telling my other sister that her son doesn't believe in god, but does believe in Santa Clause.

Perhaps they do it because they find great value in the memes of their faith that they wish to pass on to their children. Just because you don't like the memes doesn't mean they are inherently bad or evil, it usually means that you are ignorant about the faith and how it fits into people's lives. Nobody forces them to have faith here in the US. You either have it or you don't, and if you do then you must find some value in it. Who the fuck are you to tell someone else what the value of their faith is to them? Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

There's nothing special or uniquely virtuous about the values declared under the faith banner, unless you think obeying a religious authority is a virtue I guess.

[mistermack]

Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

I shouldn't laugh. I know he can't help it.

[Seth]

Yeh, the good/bad bit sounds good, but it's entirely untrue.

In any case, people aren't either good or bad. They are much more complicated than that.


What bugs me about faith is that, even if people haven't got it, they often still try to inflict it on their kids. Or stand by, while the religious twats try to do it for them.
I really respect parents who leave it to their kids. My sister is one of the few true believers I know, but I heard her laughing telling my other sister that her son doesn't believe in god, but does believe in Santa Clause.

Perhaps they do it because they find great value in the memes of their faith that they wish to pass on to their children. Just because you don't like the memes doesn't mean they are inherently bad or evil, it usually means that you are ignorant about the faith and how it fits into people's lives. Nobody forces them to have faith here in the US. You either have it or you don't, and if you do then you must find some value in it. Who the fuck are you to tell someone else what the value of their faith is to them? Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

A faith freely chosen by someone who is an adult is one thing.

A faith imprinted by brainwashing on susceptible children is quite another...

That falsely presumes that instilling religious faith in one's children qualifies as "brainwashing." Even if it does however, it is the right of parents to raise their children according to their religious beliefs.

[Seth]

Yeh, the good/bad bit sounds good, but it's entirely untrue.

In any case, people aren't either good or bad. They are much more complicated than that.


What bugs me about faith is that, even if people haven't got it, they often still try to inflict it on their kids. Or stand by, while the religious twats try to do it for them.
I really respect parents who leave it to their kids. My sister is one of the few true believers I know, but I heard her laughing telling my other sister that her son doesn't believe in god, but does believe in Santa Clause.

Perhaps they do it because they find great value in the memes of their faith that they wish to pass on to their children. Just because you don't like the memes doesn't mean they are inherently bad or evil, it usually means that you are ignorant about the faith and how it fits into people's lives. Nobody forces them to have faith here in the US. You either have it or you don't, and if you do then you must find some value in it. Who the fuck are you to tell someone else what the value of their faith is to them? Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

There's nothing special or uniquely virtuous about the values declared under the faith banner, unless you think obeying a religious authority is a virtue I guess.

Well, it seems that some 80 percent of the population of the planet agree that obeying a religious authority is a virtue. If you are a supporter of democracy, then you must also be consistent and submit to majority rule when it comes to obeying religious authority don't you think?

[Brian Peacock]

Yeh, the good/bad bit sounds good, but it's entirely untrue.

In any case, people aren't either good or bad. They are much more complicated than that.


What bugs me about faith is that, even if people haven't got it, they often still try to inflict it on their kids. Or stand by, while the religious twats try to do it for them.
I really respect parents who leave it to their kids. My sister is one of the few true believers I know, but I heard her laughing telling my other sister that her son doesn't believe in god, but does believe in Santa Clause.

Perhaps they do it because they find great value in the memes of their faith that they wish to pass on to their children. Just because you don't like the memes doesn't mean they are inherently bad or evil, it usually means that you are ignorant about the faith and how it fits into people's lives. Nobody forces them to have faith here in the US. You either have it or you don't, and if you do then you must find some value in it. Who the fuck are you to tell someone else what the value of their faith is to them? Don't be an arrogant prick and mind your own business.

There's nothing special or uniquely virtuous about the values declared under the faith banner, unless you think obeying a religious authority is a virtue I guess.

Well, it seems that some 80 percent of the population of the planet agree that obeying a religious authority is a virtue. If you are a supporter of democracy, then you must also be consistent and submit to majority rule when it comes to obeying religious authority don't you think?

Nope, because your false dichotomy conflates obeying a religious authority with democracy. Nor did you address the point: that obeying an authority is not virtue-bestowing in and of itself.