What is faith? Really?

Holy Crap!
Post Reply
User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60727
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:08 am

JimC wrote: As I've said before, even if it is not wise to assert with dogmatic certainty that there is no god, in the absence of evidence for a god, it is perfectly reasonable to live on the operating assumption that no supernatural being exists.
Oh my, how religious of you, Jim!! What a zealot! I can see how you want to kill Christians and/or lock them up in gulags. You're a marxist too, so it makes perfect sense..

:hehe:
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74149
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by JimC » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:35 am

rEvolutionist wrote:... software is borked. Anyone else having strange things go on when you try and edit a post, and also when you submit a post and someone else has made an intervening post in the meantime?...
Nothing I've noticed, rEv... :dunno:
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
pErvinalia
On the good stuff
Posts: 60727
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:08 pm
About me: Spelling 'were' 'where'
Location: dystopia
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:37 am

Goddidit!
Sent from my penis using wankertalk.
"The Western world is fucking awesome because of mostly white men" - DaveDodo007.
"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
"Seth you are a boon to this community" - Cunt.
"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74149
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by JimC » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:57 am

rEvolutionist wrote:Goddidit!
And he did it only to you, rEv...

I'm sorry to say that you are clearly a sinner, and should be shunned by the saints of Rationalia...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by mistermack » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:14 pm

Seth wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:
piscator wrote:P1 Perfect knowledge eliminates all questions.
P2 "Does God exist" is a question.
C1 Perfect knowledge will answer eliminate the question "Does God exist."
Answer...eliminate...same thing. A distinction without a difference.
Fark! Last week Seth approved of something I said and now I fully agree with his post. The sky is falling!

OK, that may be a massive overreaction. Seth, you have ignored the question of how we can be certain of having reached perfect knowledge several times now. Is there a scientific test for this, or is it just a gut feeling?
It's a logical truth. It needs no test because if and when it comes to pass, whomever attains that perfection of knowledge will necessarily know that the knowledge he, she or it has is perfect. If there is any ambiguity, then the knowledge is not perfect.

How much simpler can I possibly make it?
You've certainly got a talent for the simple.
Like virtually all the so-called logical arguments in syllogism form, you assume the answer in your premise. When you say, ''all questions'' you have of course included the god question. Otherwise, it's not ALL questions.
So all you establish, is that someone who knows the answer to the god question, knows the answer to the god question.
You certainly did make it simple. Award yourself a lollipop, Socrates. :funny: :funny: :funny:
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74149
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by JimC » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:58 pm

Seth wrote:

...whomever attains that perfection of knowledge will necessarily know that the knowledge he, she or it has is perfect. ...
Pseudo-mystical crap, worthy of the most brainless of the new-age neo-hippie brigade...

I can just see Seth in a caftan, with some rather spiffy beads...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Seth » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:47 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

it's purely rational to conclude, based on all the pertinent evidence known to man, that it is impossible to conclude that God exists or does not exist at this stage of human knowledge. Therefore the only rational answer to the question "Does God exist?" must be "I don't know."
And yet you go much further. You assert that, at some time in the future (with the illusory chimera of "perfect knowledge") that humans will be able to make that call for certain. :roll:
No I don't. I said "when man's knowledge of the universe is perfect, then he will know whether or not God exists." It's a conditional statement, not a prediction of man's future intellectual progress.
And even if we accept, for the moment, that in terms of pure logic, "I don't know" is the best call we can make, we are confronted by hordes of angry theists who assert, often violently, that unless you agree with them that their particular god exists, you are evil, and should be punished.
Why do you give a flying fuck what they believe or say? If they try to punish you for apostasy, just draw your pistol and shoot them dead. Oh, wait...you don't HAVE a pistol...never mind, you get to enjoy the Inquisition.
In comparison, stubborn atheists who assert that there is definitely no god may be sarcastic towards theists, but I've yet to see an atheist jihad against the faithful. ;)
You seem to forget Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot, who alone are responsible for about 100 million dead people, many of them of various religious persuasions that Communism tried to wipe out. There are many more Marxists like them who have done the same thing and who want to do the same thing, and I suspect a few of them infest this place and RatSkep.
As I've said before, even if it is not wise to assert with dogmatic certainty that there is no god, in the absence of evidence for a god, it is perfectly reasonable to live on the operating assumption that no supernatural being exists.
Of course it is. I never claimed anything different. All I'm saying is that any statement in response to a theistic claim other than "I don't know" is logically and rationally flawed and demonstrates a deeper bias and hatred of theism than most Atheists care to admit, which makes them gross hypocrites as well as religious zealots.

Then again, if God is not a "supernatural being" and is in fact an entirely natural being that you just don't comprehend, your entire Atheist platform is resting on a slender reed planted in a foundation of shifting sand.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Seth » Wed Jul 02, 2014 1:49 am

mistermack wrote:
Seth wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Seth wrote:
piscator wrote:P1 Perfect knowledge eliminates all questions.
P2 "Does God exist" is a question.
C1 Perfect knowledge will answer eliminate the question "Does God exist."
Answer...eliminate...same thing. A distinction without a difference.
Fark! Last week Seth approved of something I said and now I fully agree with his post. The sky is falling!

OK, that may be a massive overreaction. Seth, you have ignored the question of how we can be certain of having reached perfect knowledge several times now. Is there a scientific test for this, or is it just a gut feeling?
It's a logical truth. It needs no test because if and when it comes to pass, whomever attains that perfection of knowledge will necessarily know that the knowledge he, she or it has is perfect. If there is any ambiguity, then the knowledge is not perfect.

How much simpler can I possibly make it?
You've certainly got a talent for the simple.
Like virtually all the so-called logical arguments in syllogism form, you assume the answer in your premise. When you say, ''all questions'' you have of course included the god question. Otherwise, it's not ALL questions.
So all you establish, is that someone who knows the answer to the god question, knows the answer to the god question.
You certainly did make it simple. Award yourself a lollipop, Socrates. :funny: :funny: :funny:
And yet you still seem to be entirely incapable of comprehending it.

Poor thing.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74149
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by JimC » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:45 am

Seth wrote:

Then again, if God is not a "supernatural being" and is in fact an entirely natural being that you just don't comprehend, your entire Atheist platform is resting on a slender reed planted in a foundation of shifting sand.
If so, the question is, firstly, whether it is simply a creator being with no personal connection to the sapient beings within its creation.

If it has a personal connection, as alleged by most monotheistic religions, which version is correct? Is it Allah, is it the Jewish master of the universe, or is it the catholic version?

Whichever version of the monotheistic god you pick, Seth, be aware that He is, from all written accounts, a fascist monster that demands his people to be the ultimate sheeples.

I think you should lead a libertarian anti-theist campaign against the ultimate threat to human freedom... :tea:
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Seth » Wed Jul 02, 2014 7:58 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Then again, if God is not a "supernatural being" and is in fact an entirely natural being that you just don't comprehend, your entire Atheist platform is resting on a slender reed planted in a foundation of shifting sand.
If so, the question is, firstly, whether it is simply a creator being with no personal connection to the sapient beings within its creation.

If it has a personal connection, as alleged by most monotheistic religions, which version is correct? Is it Allah, is it the Jewish master of the universe, or is it the catholic version?

Whichever version of the monotheistic god you pick, Seth, be aware that He is, from all written accounts, a fascist monster that demands his people to be the ultimate sheeples.

I think you should lead a libertarian anti-theist campaign against the ultimate threat to human freedom... :tea:
Nothing in logic says god has to be a nice guy. I believe historically most gods are nasty, jealous, vindictive and cruel. That's usually why people worship them, to curry favor and avoid the gods wrath.

I'm not saying that the existence of god is unalloyed good, just that it's not rational to claim that god does not exist.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

MrJonno
Posts: 3442
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:24 am
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:20 am

I think you should lead a libertarian anti-theist campaign against the ultimate threat to human freedom...
Obviously god isnt the ultimate threat to freedom, but as I've mentioned before if Seth's comrades every find out he is an atheist (sorry non-theist tolerist - not trade marked as there is already a book on tolerism which definitely isnt libertarian) they will disown him.
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

User avatar
LucidFlight
Posts: 398
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:00 am
About me: I enjoy transcending space-time.
Location: Los Angeles
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by LucidFlight » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:22 am

Seth wrote:That's usually why people worship them, to curry favor and avoid the gods wrath.
Image
Sent from my eyeballs using — that's not how this works; that's not how any of this works.

User avatar
Brian Peacock
Tipping cows since 1946
Posts: 39933
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:44 am
About me: Ablate me:
Location: Location: Location:
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Brian Peacock » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:41 am

:rofl:
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
Details on how to do that can be found here.

.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74149
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by JimC » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:05 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Then again, if God is not a "supernatural being" and is in fact an entirely natural being that you just don't comprehend, your entire Atheist platform is resting on a slender reed planted in a foundation of shifting sand.
If so, the question is, firstly, whether it is simply a creator being with no personal connection to the sapient beings within its creation.

If it has a personal connection, as alleged by most monotheistic religions, which version is correct? Is it Allah, is it the Jewish master of the universe, or is it the catholic version?

Whichever version of the monotheistic god you pick, Seth, be aware that He is, from all written accounts, a fascist monster that demands his people to be the ultimate sheeples.

I think you should lead a libertarian anti-theist campaign against the ultimate threat to human freedom... :tea:
Nothing in logic says god has to be a nice guy. I believe historically most gods are nasty, jealous, vindictive and cruel. That's usually why people worship them, to curry favor and avoid the gods wrath.

I'm not saying that the existence of god is unalloyed good, just that it's not rational to claim that god does not exist.
So, you are clearly prepared to be an arse-licker if it will save you from the wrath of god...

Coward!
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

MrJonno
Posts: 3442
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:24 am
Contact:

Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by MrJonno » Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:35 am

It's on of the reason real theist libertarians are satanists (church of satan worships freedom).

Being a christian and believing in freedom are complete contradictions in terms. Even Ayn Rand realised that (one of the reasons she was an atheist)
When only criminals carry guns the police know exactly who to shoot!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 6 guests