What is faith? Really?

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Animavore
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Animavore » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:23 pm

Seth wrote:That's a problem with your form of government and elected officials. It's called "democracy." You see, democracy cuts both ways. Obviously the majority in your country supported a ban on divorce, and democratically speaking it is their right to impose that social decision on you, just as you want to impose your social decisions on them.

Suck it up, buttercup, that's democracy!
I don't have to suck it up. We won.
And nothing is imposed on anyone by allowing a divorce by the state. The Catholic Church don't (and don't have to) recognise it. You still can't get divorced in the Church's eyes. I would never seek to impose that they allow it. So I'm not sure which social decisions you think I'm seeking to impose on anyone.
Seth wrote:
I refer you to Pascal's Wager.
The problem with Pascal's wager is that for me to take it seriously I'd have to join up to every religion. This would lead to a lifetime of devotions, prayer, fasting, celebrations, pilgrimage and meditations which will likely kill me in the process. And I don't even want to think about all the other religions that might exist out there in the universe!

Pascal didn't think big enough when he created his wager.
Seth wrote:
Indeed they are...except for the ones who kneecap people and blow shit up.
Northern Irish people are a class of their own and certainly aren't representative of us in the South.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by mistermack » Sun Jun 15, 2014 3:49 pm

Mick wrote:I don't see it that way. It is analogous to the parent-child case, I think.

Through natural theology and bibical studies, people believe that God exists, that the Biblical documents are reliable and that Jesus resurrected from the dead. The faith part comes in when we are faced with revelation that is not demonstrable or probable in the light of evidence we have (which is not to say it is improbable). We accept its truth based upon that trust in God, as He is demonstrated to be goodness itself (a demonstration found in natural theology) and our trust in the documents.
Very few people actually believe ''through'' those things.
They believe first, through indoctrination, and then build up some sort of ''logic'' to support that belief later.

How many people never got indoctrinated as children, but then became believers through that bullshit?
A teeny tiny meeeeny number.

The vast majority are indoctrinated as children, and that's why they believe. Then they dress it up, as you do, as being the result of some intellectual process.
Are you actually fooling yourself with that crap?
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by JimC » Sun Jun 15, 2014 9:14 pm

Seth wrote:

Of course it's evidence. Say that sample was collected but misplaced and never presented in court. In the future that sample is discovered and analyzed and it shows that the person convicted of the crime could not have committed the crime. People have been acquitted and freed based on exactly that sort of evidence.
Totally false - I thought you pretended to know something about the law?

In your example, the sample only became evidence when it was re-discovered, and presented in court, to be examined. There are countless nasty stains all over the world that, if analysed and presented to a court, might become evidence of something. However, until that happens, they are, and remain, simply stains.

The whole point here is the nature of evidence, whether in a legal or scientific sense. Evidence only exists when some aspect of the world is displayed for judgement by others; a judge or jury, in the case of legal evidence, and fellow scientists who read one's latest paper in the case of scientific evidence.

If someone wishes to convince you that their point of view has merit, it is pointless them saying that they have secret knowledge which supports their case, but we have to take that "on faith". They can live in their own little delusional world if they wish, but until they present objective evidence to be dispassionately judged by others, their private delusion has no privileged status.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Seth » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:34 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Mick wrote:
Svartalf wrote:What's natural theology?

and as for the goodness of the deity, thousands upon thousands of tales of woe happening to the innocent show what drivel the concept of a good god is.
Why?
Because God, if he is real, is clearly a cunt. :tea:
All the more reason not to piss him off.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Seth » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:37 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Nonsense. Evidence is evidence. Whether you get to subject it to scientific analysis does not change the existence or nature of the evidence. A blood sample from a murderer at the scene of the crime is evidence even if the investigator overlooks it and it's never analyzed.
Complete nonsense. Evidence only counts when it presented in public, to be judged.
Counts for what? Are you under the mistaken impression that people of faith have some duty to present their evidence for public scrutiny?
they should be when their bullshit affects society and public policy. They can believe in any nonsense they want, but when they start trying to force people to live a certain way with no evidence at all to back them up, they can get a fucking chainsaw up themselves.
What's this!? You eschew democracy!? Hey bud, majority rules. You don't like it, then fuck off somewhere else.
Evidence is evidence. That you don't understand it or haven't seen, or don't believe it, it doesn't make it cease to exist as evidence.
yeah, but it also makes it totally fucking worthless to anyone but the deluded individual that dreamed it up. I.e. it's not evidence... it's indistinguishable from mental psychosis and lying and all host of other undesirable human traits and afflictions.
It's not required to be of value to anyone else. Religion is a very personal thing, something you should know since you're one of the most fervent religious Atheists I know of.
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"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Seth » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:41 am

Animavore wrote:
Seth wrote:That's a problem with your form of government and elected officials. It's called "democracy." You see, democracy cuts both ways. Obviously the majority in your country supported a ban on divorce, and democratically speaking it is their right to impose that social decision on you, just as you want to impose your social decisions on them.

Suck it up, buttercup, that's democracy!
I don't have to suck it up. We won.
That's democracy for ya.
And nothing is imposed on anyone by allowing a divorce by the state. The Catholic Church don't (and don't have to) recognise it. You still can't get divorced in the Church's eyes. I would never seek to impose that they allow it. So I'm not sure which social decisions you think I'm seeking to impose on anyone.
Well, the democratic decision until now has been to disallow civil divorce and you wanted to, and succeeded in imposing your social decision on the voting minority. That's democracy for you. Majority rules, no matter who else gets fucked in the process. Which is why I'm eternally grateful that I don't live in a democracy.
Seth wrote:
I refer you to Pascal's Wager.
The problem with Pascal's wager is that for me to take it seriously I'd have to join up to every religion. This would lead to a lifetime of devotions, prayer, fasting, celebrations, pilgrimage and meditations which will likely kill me in the process. And I don't even want to think about all the other religions that might exist out there in the universe!
Nobody said it was easy.
Pascal didn't think big enough when he created his wager.
Or he formulated it with tongue firmly in cheek.
Seth wrote:
Indeed they are...except for the ones who kneecap people and blow shit up.
Northern Irish people are a class of their own and certainly aren't representative of us in the South.
No True Scotsman fallacy.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Seth » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:58 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Of course it's evidence. Say that sample was collected but misplaced and never presented in court. In the future that sample is discovered and analyzed and it shows that the person convicted of the crime could not have committed the crime. People have been acquitted and freed based on exactly that sort of evidence.
Totally false - I thought you pretended to know something about the law?

In your example, the sample only became evidence when it was re-discovered, and presented in court, to be examined. There are countless nasty stains all over the world that, if analysed and presented to a court, might become evidence of something. However, until that happens, they are, and remain, simply stains.
No, they are undiscovered evidence.
Definition of evidence (n)
Bing Dictionary
ev·i·dence
[ évvid'nss ]
sign or proof: something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something, or that helps somebody to come to a particular conclusion
If a tree falls in the forest and there is no human there to observe it, does it make a sound? Yes, of course it does. If the bloodstain evidence exists on the flooring under the carpet where it has not been observed by a human, does the bloodstain still exist? Yes, of course it does. That it is of no practical use to the judicial process unless and until it is discovered doesn't change the fact of its existence or it's nature as "something that gives a sign or proof of the existence or truth of something."
The whole point here is the nature of evidence, whether in a legal or scientific sense. Evidence only exists when some aspect of the world is displayed for judgement by others; a judge or jury, in the case of legal evidence, and fellow scientists who read one's latest paper in the case of scientific evidence.
Wrong. Evidence either exists or does not exist. The probative value if a particular piece of evidence towards proving a particular fact or proposition is something entirely separate from the evidence itself.
If someone wishes to convince you that their point of view has merit, it is pointless them saying that they have secret knowledge which supports their case, but we have to take that "on faith".
No, it's just frustrating for you because they refuse to disclose the evidence that they have that leads them to that conclusion for your scrutiny and judgment. But then again you have no right to expect or demand that they do so. That they refuse to produce the evidence doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist, just as the fact that the IRS says it "lost" Lois Lerner's emails showing that she deliberately targeted conservative groups for tax harassment doesn't mean the emails have actually been lost.

They can live in their own little delusional world if they wish, but until they present objective evidence to be dispassionately judged by others, their private delusion has no privileged status.
It has whatever status the believers give it, and it has that societal status that the majority in a democratic society says it has. It has the legal status that the majority in a democratic society says it has as well, whether you like it, agree with it, believe it, or not.

Welcome to democracy, may you have it, good and hard.

If you don't like that system, then I suggest you move to Iran, where the Mullahs tell you what you will believe and will cut your head off if you yap about it the way you do here.

Suck it up, buttercup, this is democracy.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:24 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Mick wrote:
Svartalf wrote:What's natural theology?

and as for the goodness of the deity, thousands upon thousands of tales of woe happening to the innocent show what drivel the concept of a good god is.
Why?
Because God, if he is real, is clearly a cunt. :tea:
All the more reason not to piss him off.
Luckily he's most probably the invention of people suffering from delusion.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:29 am

Seth wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

Nonsense. Evidence is evidence. Whether you get to subject it to scientific analysis does not change the existence or nature of the evidence. A blood sample from a murderer at the scene of the crime is evidence even if the investigator overlooks it and it's never analyzed.
Complete nonsense. Evidence only counts when it presented in public, to be judged.
Counts for what? Are you under the mistaken impression that people of faith have some duty to present their evidence for public scrutiny?
they should be when their bullshit affects society and public policy. They can believe in any nonsense they want, but when they start trying to force people to live a certain way with no evidence at all to back them up, they can get a fucking chainsaw up themselves.
What's this!? You eschew democracy!? Hey bud, majority rules. You don't like it, then fuck off somewhere else.
Nothing about democracy holds that any particular belief or ideology should be respected. I believe in a democracy with a rational constitution backing it up.
Evidence is evidence. That you don't understand it or haven't seen, or don't believe it, it doesn't make it cease to exist as evidence.
yeah, but it also makes it totally fucking worthless to anyone but the deluded individual that dreamed it up. I.e. it's not evidence... it's indistinguishable from mental psychosis and lying and all host of other undesirable human traits and afflictions.
It's not required to be of value to anyone else. Religion is a very personal thing, something you should know since you're one of the most fervent religious Atheists I know of.
Addressing the last first... I'm certainly not, given I barely ever comment on religion or atheism topics. But please, do keep making shit up.

You are the one who is trying to argue that delusions and lying and conspiracy is a form of evidence. If it can't be distinguished from psychosis, then it has no value to anyone. Particularly not the people you are trying to convince that it is evidence. Stop making weak arguments.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Animavore » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:49 pm

Seth wrote: Well, the democratic decision until now has been to disallow civil divorce and you wanted to, and succeeded in imposing your social decision on the voting minority. That's democracy for you. Majority rules, no matter who else gets fucked in the process. Which is why I'm eternally grateful that I don't live in a democracy.
Was it really a democratic decision to disallow divorce? I don't think anyone ever voted on it. As far as I know it was written into the constitution from the beginning as an extention of old laws going back to the days of theocracy/monarchy which they simply didn't bother questioning.

Also, who gets "fucked" by taking away prohibtion? The people who personally object to divorce don't have to get divorced as is their preference. Nothing is imposed on them.
It's only by prohibiting things that people get fucked over.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jun 16, 2014 1:53 pm

The people who'll have to pay alimony after a divorce will get fucked, badly.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Animavore » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:19 pm

Svartalf wrote:The people who'll have to pay alimony after a divorce will get fucked, badly.
Besides the point. Seth claimed we were pushing our social decision on the voting minority. This simply isn't the case. Those against divorce do not have to get divorced. Their rights are not affected in anyway. Banning divorce, however, does affect rights. Including the religous rights of many.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:35 pm

Hey, I'm here for the lulz, not to get into a nasty dispute ;)
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Hermit » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:42 pm

Svartalf wrote:Hey, I'm here for the lulz, not to get into a nasty dispute ;)
Have your lulz. No problem there, Svarty, but as long as you feel free to post how you like, allow other members to feel free to reply how they like too. No need to get your Gallic nose out of joint because a Gaelic brain called you on your bullshit, lulz or not.
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Re: What is faith? Really?

Post by Svartalf » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:47 pm

trying to defuse it before I get embroiled in the dispute... Looks like the Dàil is still too petrified to let the people have their way with divorce, let alone the Séanad.

Where's the situation on abortion already? My bet is on "not really better than it was 25 years ago". (meaning the 2013 law is a poultice on a peg leg and useless)
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