minimum wage

[JimC]

Drewish et al assume that being poor is in fact a sign of a deficient human being, someone who "hasn't got what it takes", someone who deserves any misery that comes their way... Sometimes it seems almost stronger and angrier than that; poor people are wilfully poor, they are parasites on the body politic, they are ubermensch...

Luckily, this is not a view shared by most in modern western societies; it is merely a particularly nasty little end of the bell curve...

[FBM]

Nature avoids competition in various ways: by separating species geographically into differing habitats; by sorting species into unique niches within habits; by spatial division according to gradations of environmental factors, such as oxygen content at different levels of a body of water; by territorial demarcations, as when cats mark out with their scent the space which is theirs; and by establishing dominance hierarchies within social groupings of animals.

Cooperation is fostered through a wide array of symbiotic arrangements. Many plants produce tasty fruits, which animals eat, later depositing the undigested seeds. The intestinal bacteria of grazing animals makes possible the breakdown of cellulose fibers into digestible fatty acids. Egyptian plovers get their food by cleaning parasites off the bodies of rhinoceroses. And clown fish are given protection by anemone, while serving as bait for the fish that the anemone eat. These are only examples of inter- species cooperation--intra-species cooperation is even more commonplace.

http://p2pfoundation.net/How_Nature_Avo ... ooperation

[pErvinalia]

Drewish et al assume that being poor is in fact a sign of a deficient human being, someone who "hasn't got what it takes", someone who deserves any misery that comes their way... Sometimes it seems almost stronger and angrier than that; poor people are wilfully poor, they are parasites on the body politic, they are ubermensch...

Luckily, this is not a view shared by most in modern western societies; it is merely a particularly nasty little end of the bell curve...

Yep.

[FBM]

http://www.animalplanet.com/tv-shows/an ... pgn=fbapl1

(Cooperation in nature.)

[MrJonno]

Just as interesting is empathy is about the only emotion that can currently be directly linked to what is going on in the brain. If you see someone stub their toe the actual parts of the brain that detect this pain light up in the head of the observer not just the victim.

Another concept that has been as near as proven in psychology (as much as you can in that area anyway ) is fairness.

The test where you give a £/$ 100 to one person and then are told to share it with a 2nd person. If an agreement isn't reached neither get anything. In an economical rational sense if the 2nd person only gets £1 he is still better of than before and should logically except. The reality is unless a near 50/50 share is agreed the 2nd person would rather both people get nothing than an 'unfair' distribution. That's what it means to be human an innate concept of fairness (obviously lacking in the libertarian mutation)

[Drewish]

By your standards of "fairness" the people who have more kids than they can afford to care for should have their reproduction subsidized. By who? Those who plan their families or don't have any kids. Look at the reproduction rates by economic class. Any poor person who works their way out of poverty suddenly finds them self forced to carry those who did not. Couple this welfare driven race to the bottom with one person one vote and you've got an environment that will select for the dumb, the lazy, and the willfully ignorant. Poverty correlates with crime. Poverty correlates with large families. Poverty correlates with religious belief. And for ever person you lift out of poverty countless more are born into it. The ignorant with no concept of the nature of reality, who merely multiply as they have been hardwired to are a disease. Those aware of this, but who seek to promote their propagation on the backs of the responsible are far worse. That you see this work as noble is disgusting. That you see those who oppose it as immoral is disturbing. Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the Earth. But Jesus was a crazy apocalyptic preacher, and the meek inheriting the Earth would certainly be a kind of apocalypse.

[FBM]

So...how about we all work towards eradicating the cause of the problems...poverty? What you propose is the perpetuation of it. Wtf?

[MrJonno]

Well as much as I'm up for a breeding license the main problem would be who got the license. I would automatic ban anyone above a certain level of religiosity regardless of wealth.
I would argue that poverty leads to excess breeding (and religion) , not excess breeding leads to poverty. If you are poor what else do you have to do but breed, what else can bring any value to your life.

There is of course an 'unfairness' in those who have no or less kids subsidising those who have many more, but there is an even bigger unfairness in making those kids pay for their parents mistakes (like having them).

I hate the underclass as much as any libertarian the difference is I don't want to see them starve or just as important mug me. You pay them a relatively small amount of money (benefits to the unemployed is not a significant part of any budget compared to subsidising low wages or pensions) to keep them quiet and out of my hair. The reality is a significant % of people born in the 1st world will never have any 'economic value'. I see 5 year olds every day on the bus who have no future bar prison or unemployment but that is the reality not pretending they don't exist or will stop existing one day

[FBM]

Precisely. What we're seeing in the correlation between poverty and crime is the result of exactly the mindset of "let them starve because they're unfit" bullshit. If you want to solve the crime problem, solve the poverty problem. Poverty is a relatively new invention in the history of mankind. I think we can figure out a way to get rid of it, and then the crime issue will disappear of its own accord.

Edit: To clarify, I don't hate the underclass the way MrJonno does; I sympathize with them and want to relieve their unjust suffering so that they can fulfill their potential in the same way as people who had a more favorable roll of the historical dice.

[laklak]

Poor soup, that's the ticket. Take a poor person, boil with a few tatties and onions, maybe some celery. Enjoy.

Clean them thoroughly first, otherwise the broth is gritty.

[JimC]

Precisely. What we're seeing in the correlation between poverty and crime is the result of exactly the mindset of "let them starve because they're unfit" bullshit. If you want to solve the crime problem, solve the poverty problem. Poverty is a relatively new invention in the history of mankind. I think we can figure out a way to get rid of it, and then the crime issue will disappear of its own accord.

Edit: To clarify, I don't hate the underclass the way MrJonno does; I sympathize with them and want to relieve their unjust suffering so that they can fulfill their potential in the same way as people who had a more favorable roll of the historical dice.

To me, it seems MrJonno fears them more than hates them, and views welfare as an opiate of the masses that he hopes will prevent them from eating him...

[MrJonno]

To me, it seems MrJonno fears them more than hates them, and views welfare as an opiate of the masses that he hopes will prevent them from eating him..

Fair enough I fear and wish they didn't exist. I don't believe while people have free will to breed they are going to go away. I have some sympathy for them but not as much as I fear them.

When I see a 5 year old on the bus going around kicking fellow passengers while the mother alternates between telling the kid to sit the fuck down and shouting 'what you looking at' and comparing it other children who are learning a 2nd language and how to use a knife other for stabbing someone that realistically there is nothing any society can do (at least without spending vast amounts of money that we don't have) for these kids beyond ensuring they aren't born in the first place. I see such kids multiple times each week.

In the past their parents would do working class jobs with manual semi-skilled or skilled work. Those jobs don't exist any more but unfortunately these people do

You may think I'm harsh and nasty but as I don't want them rounded up in a camp and shot but instead paid to stay away from me I consider myself pretty humane on the matter

[FBM]

Yeah, 'cuz there's no such thing as a middle-class or rich asshole.

[pErvinalia]

By your standards of "fairness" the people who have more kids than they can afford to care for should have their reproduction subsidized. By who? Those who plan their families or don't have any kids. Look at the reproduction rates by economic class. Any poor person who works their way out of poverty suddenly finds them self forced to carry those who did not. Couple this welfare driven race to the bottom with one person one vote and you've got an environment that will select for the dumb, the lazy, and the willfully ignorant. Poverty correlates with crime. Poverty correlates with large families. Poverty correlates with religious belief. And for ever person you lift out of poverty countless more are born into it. The ignorant with no concept of the nature of reality, who merely multiply as they have been hardwired to are a disease. Those aware of this, but who seek to promote their propagation on the backs of the responsible are far worse. That you see this work as noble is disgusting. That you see those who oppose it as immoral is disturbing. Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the Earth. But Jesus was a crazy apocalyptic preacher, and the meek inheriting the Earth would certainly be a kind of apocalypse.

Wow, you're a right regular Hitler, aren't you? All I can say is I'm glad sociopaths (psychopaths?) like you are in a very small minority.

[pErvinalia]

Precisely. What we're seeing in the correlation between poverty and crime is the result of exactly the mindset of "let them starve because they're unfit" bullshit. If you want to solve the crime problem, solve the poverty problem. Poverty is a relatively new invention in the history of mankind. I think we can figure out a way to get rid of it, and then the crime issue will disappear of its own accord.

Edit: To clarify, I don't hate the underclass the way MrJonno does; I sympathize with them and want to relieve their unjust suffering so that they can fulfill their potential in the same way as people who had a more favorable roll of the historical dice.

To me, it seems MrJonno fears them more than hates them, and views welfare as an opiate of the masses that he hopes will prevent them from eating him...

Yep, that's Jonno's conservatism showing through (he is an anti-libertarian in the true sense; aka an authoritarian). Conservatives are well known to be driven by fear and emotion.