Meanwhile, back in Kiev....

[pErvinalia]

Nukes for everyone!

We may as well. That's the way it's heading..

[JimC]

Nukes for everyone!

We may as well. That's the way it's heading..

Just not Tasmania, please...

[Warren Dew]

I bet the UKrainian gummint will be asking Iran or NK about help to develop their own nuke arsenal...

This is something that I find extremely disturbing (professionally tinted as I am). The complete disregard by Putin of promises given when Ukraine abstained from their nukes, and the inability of the west to do anything about it. This does not encourage anyone to abstain from nukes, and could become the most far reaching effect of this conflict in times to come.

Agreed. Qadafi, who voluntarily gave up his nuclear program, is gone; Ukraine, which voluntarily gave up their nuclear weapons, is being divvied up by the great powers. Meanwhile, North Korea is left alone. It's becoming more and more clear that actual nuclear weapons are a much better guarantor of safety than trusting to the big nuclear nations.

[mistermack]

I bet the UKrainian gummint will be asking Iran or NK about help to develop their own nuke arsenal...

This is something that I find extremely disturbing (professionally tinted as I am). The complete disregard by Putin of promises given when Ukraine abstained from their nukes, and the inability of the west to do anything about it. This does not encourage anyone to abstain from nukes, and could become the most far reaching effect of this conflict in times to come.

Agreed. Qadafi, who voluntarily gave up his nuclear program, is gone; Ukraine, which voluntarily gave up their nuclear weapons, is being divvied up by the great powers. Meanwhile, North Korea is left alone. It's becoming more and more clear that actual nuclear weapons are a much better guarantor of safety than trusting to the big nuclear nations.

You've got a funny idea of safety.
I'd rather be Crimean than North Korean. The Russians have probably prevented a blood-bath in Crimea, by acting fast.

Forget your ''safety''.
The best thing that could happen to North Korea would be an attack by a major power.

[Svartalf]

The Russians have prevented nothing, there would not have been the current unrest there if not for the Russian agit-prop action.

[mistermack]

The Russians have prevented nothing, there would not have been the current unrest there if not for the Russian agit-prop action.

If the Crimeans had decided to hold this referendum without Russian backing, the thugs from Kiev would have sent in their bully boys, like they are doing in Eastern Ukraine.
I think there would have been serious fighting in Crimea.

The only thing keeping it down in Eastern Ukraine it the knowledge that the Russian Army is just over the border.

[laklak]

Funny, there's a lot of support for this sort of referendum as long as it's a politically correct group that wants to leave. Self-determination and all that. But Crimea tries it and it's all the fault of the Big Bad Russian Bear. I wonder how much support a referendum to reestablish the Confederacy would gather?

[MiM]

Funny, there's a lot of support for this sort of referendum as long as it's a politically correct group that wants to leave. Self-determination and all that. But Crimea tries it and it's all the fault of the Big Bad Russian Bear. I wonder how much support a referendum to reestablish the Confederacy would gather?

Well, there are differences. For one leaving is another thing than joining another country. Secondly, the west at least tries to discuss thin in UN first. Third, the time scale and the fact hat they are holding a referendum at gunpoint is just horrendous.

[Svartalf]

Funny, there's a lot of support for this sort of referendum as long as it's a politically correct group that wants to leave. Self-determination and all that. But Crimea tries it and it's all the fault of the Big Bad Russian Bear. I wonder how much support a referendum to reestablish the Confederacy would gather?

Iz funny they didn't try it without Russian prompting at some point during the last 20 years.

[mistermack]

Funny, there's a lot of support for this sort of referendum as long as it's a politically correct group that wants to leave. Self-determination and all that. But Crimea tries it and it's all the fault of the Big Bad Russian Bear. I wonder how much support a referendum to reestablish the Confederacy would gather?

Well, there are differences. For one leaving is another thing than joining another country. Secondly, the west at least tries to discuss thin in UN first. Third, the time scale and the fact hat they are holding a referendum at gunpoint is just horrendous.

Ha, that's a blatantly false portrayal of the facts. Crimea has been historically part of Russia for the majority of it's history. It wouldn't be joining another country, it would be re-joining its original country.
It's attachment to Ukraine was purely symbolic, and should have been reversed when Ukraine became independent.
Also, the phrase "at gunpoint" is entirely untrue. Nobody is pointing guns at the voters, as you very well know.
Why try to misrepresent the truth? Maybe your case is too weak on it's own?

Iz funny they didn't try it without Russian prompting at some point during the last 20 years.

There was a legal government in Kiev before now. I'm sure that they felt that their interests were represented in the government, up to this point.

It's obviously very different now.
There's an illegal gang in charge, who publicly declare that they want to break the links with Russia.

[Svartalf]

You mean there was a Russian puppet-gummint that was toppled buy popular ire

[aspire1670]

Funny, there's a lot of support for this sort of referendum as long as it's a politically correct group that wants to leave. Self-determination and all that. But Crimea tries it and it's all the fault of the Big Bad Russian Bear. I wonder how much support a referendum to reestablish the Confederacy would gather?

Well, there are differences. For one leaving is another thing than joining another country. Secondly, the west at least tries to discuss thin in UN first. Third, the time scale and the fact hat they are holding a referendum at gunpoint is just horrendous.

Ha, that's a blatantly false portrayal of the facts. Crimea has been historically part of Russia for the majority of it's history. It wouldn't be joining another country, it would be re-joining its original country.
It's attachment to Ukraine was purely symbolic, and should have been reversed when Ukraine became independent.
Also, the phrase "at gunpoint" is entirely untrue. Nobody is pointing guns at the voters, as you very well know.
Why try to misrepresent the truth? Maybe your case is too weak on it's own?

Iz funny they didn't try it without Russian prompting at some point during the last 20 years.

There was a legal government in Kiev before now. I'm sure that they felt that their interests were represented in the government, up to this point.

It's obviously very different now.
There's an illegal gang in charge, who publicly declare that they want to break the links with Russia.

Talking of misrepresentation, the Crimea has never been a part of Russia for the majority of its history. The Romans, the Goths, the Huns, the Genoese, the Venetians...............each had dibs on it. Indeed, the Romans controlled it for far longer than the Russians did.

[mistermack]

Talking of misrepresentation, the Crimea has never been a part of Russia for the majority of its history. The Romans, the Goths, the Huns, the Genoese, the Venetians...............each had dibs on it. Indeed, the Romans controlled it for far longer than the Russians did.

If I ever get nits, I'll send for you to pick them.
Ukraine and Crimea were part of the Russian empire since about 1770.
Crimea was not part of Ukraine until the early fifties, when Nikita Kruschev, a Ukrainian by birth, attached it to Ukraine as a symbolic gesture, reputedly when he was drunk.
As both were part of the Russian Empire, it didn't make a bit of difference until Ukraine split, when it should have been restored to Russia, but wasn't.
That was the fault of Boris Yeltsin, who was probably also pissed at the time. Or Gorbachev.
They were all piss artists.

If you want to go back further than 1770, the Crimeans were slavers who regularly raided Russia, taking about two million Russians into slavery. So, I think Russia is owed Crimea, following your long-term view of history.

[FBM]

...the Crimea has never been a part of Russia for the majority of its history.

If you do the logic in that sentence...

[Svartalf]

I notice that the Crimean Tatars, who owned the place before the Russians conquered it in the 1700s, boycott the referendum and don't want to be assimilated into Russia...

This is NI all over again.